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  Reply # 787966 27-Mar-2013 14:12
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mm1352000:
ajobbins: You speak like the meaning of the word marriage has not changed over time (Or indeed between religious, cultures etc). Not all that long ago marriage meant a woman assigning all her property rights to her new husband. And that is just one example of how marriage has changed and evolved in very recent times.

Things change. Meanings change. And you can adapt, or you can be left behind.

I acknowledge it has changed in legal terms... [putting on a Christian hat for a moment]... but from a Christian perspective marriage is a concept created and defined by God that has not changed. It goes right back to Genesis and the creation story; Adam and Eve and all that (did I see anybody wince?!? Wink).

For a Christian, the idea that humans can define or change the meaning of something that God has instituted is somewhat ludicrous, or possibly tantamount to a rebellion against God.

Once again I say it is unfortunate that the term "marriage" encompasses multiple concepts, meanings and connotations.

Personally I wouldn't have a problem with the idea of putting aside the legal concept of marriage and exchanging it for a concept of formal/recognised relationship that confers some of the practical legal privileges associated with marriage. And that could be a "polygamous" relationship to suit the Masha Gessen situation mentioned earlier.


Actually, polygamous marriage is part of your biblical definition - check how many wives Solomon had...
Also, the bible has four times as many references to thou shalt not eat shrimp as is does to thou shalt not be gay. Picking and choosing from everything the bible does and does not say is a time-honoured tradition.

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  Reply # 787967 27-Mar-2013 14:16
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mm1352000:
ajobbins: You speak like the meaning of the word marriage has not changed over time (Or indeed between religious, cultures etc). Not all that long ago marriage meant a woman assigning all her property rights to her new husband. And that is just one example of how marriage has changed and evolved in very recent times.

Things change. Meanings change. And you can adapt, or you can be left behind.

I acknowledge it has changed in legal terms... [putting on a Christian hat for a moment]... but from a Christian perspective marriage is a concept created and defined by God that has not changed. It goes right back to Genesis and the creation story; Adam and Eve and all that (did I see anybody wince?!? Wink).

For a Christian, the idea that humans can define or change the meaning of something that God has instituted is somewhat ludicrous, or possibly tantamount to a rebellion against God.

Once again I say it is unfortunate that the term "marriage" encompasses multiple concepts, meanings and connotations.

Personally I wouldn't have a problem with the idea of putting aside the legal concept of marriage and exchanging it for a concept of formal/recognised relationship that confers some of the practical legal privileges associated with marriage. And that could be a "polygamous" relationship to suit the Masha Gessen situation mentioned earlier.


A lot of this seems to be supposing that we accept one interpretation of the bible - the fundamentalist "the bible is the literal divine word of God" interpretation. This isn't universally accepted, even amongst Christians. Humans have changed many things the bible said (by extension things "God said" in the fundamentalist view) as we have moved on through the ages. Many of these changes were considered "ludicrous" at one point in time, and yet those same changes are merely accepted as correct by many present-day Christians. What about marriage makes it so different to the other things Christian humans have changed about the meaning of the bible or what God supposedly instituted?




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  Reply # 787969 27-Mar-2013 14:19
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BlueShift:

Actually, polygamous marriage is part of your biblical definition - check how many wives Solomon had...


Agreed and so is incest.

Thats why most christians will be more anti-gay marriage as oppose to being anti-incest or anti-polygamous.

God flattened two cities due to homosexuality. Just look up Sodom and Gomorrah

BlueShift:

Also, the bible has four times as many references to thou shalt not eat shrimp as is does to thou shalt not be gay. Picking and choosing from everything the bible does and does not say is a time-honoured tradition.


Really? Do you mind pointing them out? Did God flatten any cities due to people eating shrimp?

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  Reply # 787971 27-Mar-2013 14:24
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Klipspringer: God flattened two cities due to homosexuality. Just look up Sodom and Gomorrah


Again, a purely literal take on the bible. This is not a universal view, even amongst Christians. Seems odd to me that some Christians seem to be so happy to presume to speak for all.




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  Reply # 787973 27-Mar-2013 14:25
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Klipspringer:
ajobbins:
I already answered this back here. Civil Unions can never be extended to be equal to marriage.


Its not meant to equal marriage and it never will because marriage is about man and woman.

Civil unions can be extended to apply the exact same rights to gay couples. 

Are we talking about gay rights here? If so lets discuss what rights civil union couples cannot receive opposed to being legally married.

Im not gay. What rights will I not be entitled to if I had to have rather entered a cilvil union between my wife. Hetrosexual couples can also have a civil union. So tell me what would have been the difference for me?

Im confused. It all seems to be about gay rights! But nobody can tell me what rights civil union couples cannot receive opposed to being married.




This isn't about you though. Its about giving all new zealanders the same access to marriage as each other. If you dont get any aditional rights by being married as apposed to being in a civil union, then what makes you think that the gays will have more rights than you when they get to marry too? 

Its about making the country equal for all, not for some people who want to shove their religious point of view in everyones faces. I dont believe in the bible, so why should my life have to revolve around something that isnt proven? Let people be free to live how they want to live if it doesnt affect others. I dont go around shoving my life in other peoples face. its rude. 




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  Reply # 787974 27-Mar-2013 14:26
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Klipspringer: You basing sex between brothers and sisters as the most important factor as to why they should not get married.


Sex between brothers and sisters is illegal regardless of marriage. As is sex with a non-consenting person, animals etc.




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  Reply # 787981 27-Mar-2013 14:31
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da5id:
sittingduckz:
Geektastic:
freitasm:
Klipspringer:
freitasm: What rights are being taken away from you if the definition of marriage is changed instead of the current civil union?


This bill is NOT about my rights. This is about Gay rights. What extra rights will gay couples receive if the defenition of marriage is changed instead of the existing civil union



Well, then. If it's not about your rights (or someone else's rights being taking away), I see no reason to be against it.

As I said, giving rights to human beings is always good.



Not sure about that. I think within reason.

If you were given the right to shoot people ad hoc, would that be good? Possibly not.

I do look back and see rights that have been given which have been less than excellent. The right to drink at 18 has, I think, not been an unmitigated success.

I would also support removing the right of children to drive on public roads, which they presently have in NZ.


Shooting people has a major negative effect on others especially the shotee

18yr olds drinking isn't great but, mostly only impacts on a small group 

Children driving on public roads would endanger others greatly

If a gay couple marries you don't get shot, or vomited on by an 18yr old, or crashed into by a child driving... in fact it has no effect on you at all


Maybe not on you, but what about your children and their children? Are there negatives to the homosexual lifestyle? There are actually many. I don't care what people do in their own bedrooms, but promoting this stuff in school to children as being normal is destructive. Same-sex marriage has been legal in Canada since 2005, so they have no problems now right? Wrong. Here's an excerpt from Canada's largest gay paper XTRA, from a story by Julia Garro, Tuesday, February 17, 2009.


Over the past 10 years [Government] have contracted with experts on gay, lesbian, bisexual health to produce studies ... issues affecting queer Canadians includes lower life expectancy than the average Canadian, suicide, higher rates of substance abuse, depression, inadequate access to care and HIV/AIDS... all kinds of health issues that are endemic to our community... higher rates of anal cancer in the gay male community, lesbians have higher rates of breast cancer ... more GLBT people in this country who die of suicide each year than die from AIDS, there are more who die early deaths from substance abuse than die of HIV/AIDS... now that we can get married everyone assumes that we don't have any issues ... A lot of the deaths that occur in our community are hidden ... Those of us who are working on the front lines see them and I'm tired of watching my community die."


So, we want to promote a lifestyle to children that has high rates of substance abuse, suicide, disease and dysfunction?


Ever thought that maybe the reason for higher rates of substance abuse and suicide are because people like you constantly demean our community and tell us we're wrong? You sir are fueling the fire thats killing thousands. 
How would you feel if your kid killed themselves due to being tormented every day in high school for being gay? Then think now about how youd feel if someone said that they brang it on themselves.

And why do you think that children want to know about hetrosexual relations then? I hated sitting through that class, watching a lady give birth (DVD) was horrible, and not once was I told about any other form of sex than procreation. Our teacher was a christian, and I still remember him saying "I'm not gonna talk about a*** because I believe its for things going out, not going in". End of discussion. I had to learn how to be safe from friends and organisations like Love Your Condom. If you're looking for someone to blame for high disease rates and HIV etc. Blame bigoted people who prevent us from being educated properly. Thats like cutting your neighbours water main and then complaining that they dont water their garden. 

Now excuse me I have to go hand out my gay fliers to the school children, they get out of school soon. Toodles.




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  Reply # 787983 27-Mar-2013 14:32
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Klipspringer:
sittingduckz:

I'm sorry, but the more you say the less respect I seem to have for you. This is not meant as a personal attack, it's just how you are making me feel.

I look back on how I used to be (a little like yourself) and I'm embarrassed. Now my best friend is a lesbian, in fact she was the best man at my hetro wedding, and I was hers at her civil "marriage" union. I am welcomed by all her friends who are all awesome people who are all just struggling for acceptance from people like you.

And you wonder why the suicide rate is so high, It's because walking down the street people stare and some make rude comments. The suicide is NOT because of who they are, but how they are treated in this world by others.



You are presuming that I am not friends with any gays or lesbians?

Im not welcoming? Treat gays badly?

Quiet an assumption mate. You don’t know me at all.


Okay and how open are you with your views to your gay "friends"?
Because I sure as hell wouldnt associate with you if that was your stance. It seems like a lot of people who have these views keep it to themselves or the internet, very few stick to them in public. Pathetic




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  Reply # 787991 27-Mar-2013 14:32
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ajobbins:
Klipspringer: You basing sex between brothers and sisters as the most important factor as to why they should not get married.


Sex between brothers and sisters is illegal regardless of marriage.

True. What about sex between brothers? or sex between sisters?

tardtasticx: This isn't about you though. Its about giving all new zealanders the same access to marriage as each other. If you dont get any aditional rights by being married as apposed to being in a civil union, then what makes you think that the gays will have more rights than you when they get to marry too? 

Its about making the country equal for all, not for some people who want to shove their religious point of view in everyones faces. I dont believe in the bible, so why should my life have to revolve around something that isnt proven? Let people be free to live how they want to live if it doesnt affect others. I dont go around shoving my life in other peoples face. its rude. 


But you wrong.

Sisters and brothers (even if they gay) will still not have access to marriage. Brothers will not be able to marry their brothers and sisters will not be able to marry their sisters.

So no the country will still not be equal for all.

tardtasticx: Okay and how open are you with your views to your gay "friends"?
Because I sure as hell wouldnt associate with you if that was your stance. It seems like a lot of people who have these views keep it to themselves or the internet, very few stick to them in public. Pathetic


I have told them I don’t support gay marriage.

Is there anything wrong with not supporting gay marriage?

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  Reply # 787997 27-Mar-2013 14:43
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ajobbins: ...You speak like the meaning of the word marriage has not changed over time (Or indeed between religious, cultures etc). Not all that long ago marriage meant a woman assigning all her property rights to her new husband. And that is just one example of how marriage has changed and evolved in very recent times.

Things change. Meanings change. And you can adapt, or you can be left behind.


You need to read my post; you are just dragging out an argument over what it does not say.

I, in fact said, as the opening, "The rights of concern for protection or the giving of equality are here the rights of a relationship." The right that you mention is, in fact, an exact example of a change in order for protecting such rights of equality in that relationship. But the right that you mention is absolutely nothing to do with what I am saying about pre-existing rights to usage of the word "marriage".

You seem to be saying, that it is fine for the meaning of a word to be changed because change of meanings happens over time. In my view that is not good enough.

Perhaps to make myself clearer to those who appear to be delving into reinterpreting what I am saying into words which they can dismiss, other examples, may help.

Homosexuals have adopted usage of the name gay for themselves and I defend their right to have done so. The simple doing of that does not clash with the pre-existing right of any other group to call themselves that. What I would not defend was a move to remove that right (but, as I have said, that does not mean they should act, as they are, to expunge all other pre-existing meanings of the word gay) and demand that in the interests of equality heterosexuals are entitled to be called gay too. I suspect most gays would be with me on that, but I wonder what your stance would be.

As another example (using the one I used before), I would also not use such an argument in order to try to usurp Maoris' right to call only themselves Maori in the interests of equality. I assume, were there to be a movement to effect such a change you would support it on the basis of your interpretation of equality and the dismissive and shallow retort of "Meanings change. And you can adapt, or you can be left behind.".

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  Reply # 787999 27-Mar-2013 14:44
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Klipspringer:

I have told them I don’t support gay marriage.

Is there anything wrong with not supporting gay marriage?


Did you tell them that you teach your children that being gay is wrong as you pointed out earlier?

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  Reply # 788000 27-Mar-2013 14:44
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Ever thought that maybe the reason for higher rates of substance abuse and suicide are because people like you constantly demean our community and tell us we're wrong? You sir are fueling the fire thats killing thousands. 
How would you feel if your kid killed themselves due to being tormented every day in high school for being gay? Then think now about how youd feel if someone said that they brang it on themselves.

And why do you think that children want to know about hetrosexual relations then? I hated sitting through that class, watching a lady give birth (DVD) was horrible, and not once was I told about any other form of sex than procreation. Our teacher was a christian, and I still remember him saying "I'm not gonna talk about a*** because I believe its for things going out, not going in". End of discussion. I had to learn how to be safe from friends and organisations like Love Your Condom. If you're looking for someone to blame for high disease rates and HIV etc. Blame bigoted people like yourself who prevent us from being educated properly. Thats like cutting your neighbours water main and then complaining that they dont water their garden. 

Now excuse me I have to go hand out my gay fliers to the school children, they get out of school soon. Toodles.


Heh you might be off on an unrelated tangent. Fine if you claim that people are tormenting gay people causing them to kill themselves, happens to non gay people too, but he isn't saying he is doing that, he is saying his PREFERENCE and opinion is that gays not be allowed to marry. I don't believe this is the same thing by anyones stretch of the imagination. The way you got treated in school is unrelated to this issue and is sad, but it's hardly fair to stick that around someones neck because they oppose your right to marry.

Just because someone opposes your view, or the view of the majority of people doesn't automatically make them wrong.

Also he didn't say he was opposed to gay education or that he had himself stopped you getting educated and it's not reasonable or even that likely he played any part. 

I think you need to take a deep breath and work out why you are so hostile about these things you bought up, and put the blame where it should be put.


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  Reply # 788005 27-Mar-2013 14:48
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sittingduckz:
Klipspringer:

I have told them I don’t support gay marriage.

Is there anything wrong with not supporting gay marriage?


Did you tell them that you teach your children that being gay is wrong as you pointed out earlier?


Actually no I never.
My children told them that being gay was wrong.

I had to make it clear to my kids to keep certain opinions to themselves and to respect that not everybody has the same views as ours.

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  Reply # 788009 27-Mar-2013 14:57
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Klipspringer:
sittingduckz:
Klipspringer:

I have told them I don’t support gay marriage.

Is there anything wrong with not supporting gay marriage?


Did you tell them that you teach your children that being gay is wrong as you pointed out earlier?


Actually no I never.
My children told them that being gay was wrong.

I had to make it clear to my kids to keep certain opinions to themselves and to respect that not everybody has the same views as ours.


LOL nice one, you taught them well [Sarcasm]

It's much easier to be honest when you're hiding behind the Internet isn't it

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  Reply # 788031 27-Mar-2013 15:35
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sittingduckz:

It's much easier to be honest when you're hiding behind the Internet isn't it


LOL. PM me if you want to go for a coffee.
Not hiding behind anything.

Most of my mates all know that I don't support gay marriage, I'm generally very open about it.

The way some people carry on these days its as if its criminal to not support it.



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