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  Reply # 788032 27-Mar-2013 15:37
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The way some people carry on these days its as if its criminal to not support it.


I have noticed this as well. 

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  Reply # 788033 27-Mar-2013 15:38
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I'm still not seeing anyone address the fact that the Christian views being represented here are by no means universal, or that Christians have presumed all throughout history to change the bible and what they believe and that I'm not seeing any particular reason that marriage is inviolable where other things were not?




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  Reply # 788037 27-Mar-2013 15:41
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networkn:
 
The way some people carry on these days its as if its criminal to not support it.


I have noticed this as well. 


I have also found that when I air my views about not supporing it many people open up and tell me they they don't support it either.

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  Reply # 788038 27-Mar-2013 15:44
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NZtechfreak: I'm still not seeing anyone address the fact that the Christian views being represented here are by no means universal, or that Christians have presumed all throughout history to change the bible and what they believe and that I'm not seeing any particular reason that marriage is inviolable where other things were not?


Well to be fair it's not JUST Christians who feel this way, nor are Christians the only religion who feel that way

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  Reply # 788042 27-Mar-2013 15:48
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networkn:
NZtechfreak: I'm still not seeing anyone address the fact that the Christian views being represented here are by no means universal, or that Christians have presumed all throughout history to change the bible and what they believe and that I'm not seeing any particular reason that marriage is inviolable where other things were not?


Well to be fair it's not JUST Christians who feel this way, nor are Christians the only religion who feel that way


Correct I'm not a Christian nor do i follow any other god or idol.

It seems people are stereotyping others a lot in this thread.




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  Reply # 788043 27-Mar-2013 15:49
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NZtechfreak: I'm still not seeing anyone address the fact that the Christian views being represented here are by no means universal, or that Christians have presumed all throughout history to change the bible and what they believe and that I'm not seeing any particular reason that marriage is inviolable where other things were not?

Well for one thing, don't take my word as the one and only Christian view. I wouldn't consider myself to be a Christian and haven't claimed to be one. When I previously said "putting on a Christian hat for a moment" and "religious background" I'm speaking from the perspective of somebody who was raised as a Christian but no longer attends church regularly.

Also, the Bible does not have a "glossary of terms" so to speak, which is to say that it is open for interpretation. You'll get as many perspectives on the Bible as there are people with points of view.

Can you give an example of something that you think Christians changed?

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  Reply # 788044 27-Mar-2013 15:49
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networkn:
NZtechfreak: I'm still not seeing anyone address the fact that the Christian views being represented here are by no means universal, or that Christians have presumed all throughout history to change the bible and what they believe and that I'm not seeing any particular reason that marriage is inviolable where other things were not?


Well to be fair it's not JUST Christians who feel this way, nor are Christians the only religion who feel that way

I think most people just dont want to bring religion into this thread. I don’t believe this is the place for it.

Over 50% of kiwis are Christians so yes we really should be getting a Christian perspective.

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  Reply # 788049 27-Mar-2013 15:52
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networkn: Well to be fair it's not JUST Christians who feel this way, nor are Christians the only religion who feel that way

+1
I'm speaking for myself, and trying to play "the devil's advocate" a little.

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  Reply # 788055 27-Mar-2013 15:57
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Klipspringer:
networkn:
NZtechfreak: I'm still not seeing anyone address the fact that the Christian views being represented here are by no means universal, or that Christians have presumed all throughout history to change the bible and what they believe and that I'm not seeing any particular reason that marriage is inviolable where other things were not?


Well to be fair it's not JUST Christians who feel this way, nor are Christians the only religion who feel that way

I think most people just dont want to bring religion into this thread. I don’t believe this is the place for it.

Over 50% of kiwis are Christians so yes we really should be getting a Christian perspective.


But not all Christians are going to share the same views as each other on a given matter let alone the nuance that might exist in their position hence the '50% of Kiwi's are Christian' is kind of a meaningless statement.

Regarding LGBT people and the so-called 'negative lifestyle' you alluded to - correlation doesn't equal causation any more than a person blaming teen pregnancies on heterosexuality and then extrapolating that heterosexuality is a negative lifestyle choice that shouldn't be 'taught to children'. That raises another issue - being a LGB or T is not some sort of learned or acquired 'thing' so the idea of telling your kids that 'homosexuality is wrong' and your child going "well I thought of giving some bum fun a try but now that daddy told me it is bad I'll stick to girls" is so far fetched it is borderline childish. Btw, pre-emptiving any sort of argument relating to same sex adoption - marriage and adoption are two different matters that should be debated as such.




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  Reply # 788075 27-Mar-2013 16:15
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kawaii:

But not all Christians are going to share the same views as each other on a given matter let alone the nuance that might exist in their position hence the '50% of Kiwi's are Christian' is kind of a meaningless statement.


In my opinion I think they would be broken down into 3 groups:
1) Christians that follow the Bible and what it has to say about marriage
2) Christians that follow their own personal interpretations of the Bible.
3) People that identify themselves as Christians but don't read or understand the basics of their religion. (non Christians)

Remember there are Gay Christians out there. It would really be good to hear from some of them.

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  Reply # 788077 27-Mar-2013 16:20
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Klipspringer: Remember there are Gay Christians out there. It would really be good to hear from some of them.


Yes, and remember there are lots of gay Republicans in the USA, including those who vote in favour of hard laws on homosexuals and then are found going around toilets looking for male partners and then come with the excuse "I was just looking for gay people to help cure their disease... Yeah, right.

And then there are those like Sen Portman who was hardline against gay marriage until his son came out as gay. The Senator changed very quickly, after realising his son was still his son, gay or not.




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  Reply # 788081 27-Mar-2013 16:28
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jeffnz:
networkn:
NZtechfreak: I'm still not seeing anyone address the fact that the Christian views being represented here are by no means universal, or that Christians have presumed all throughout history to change the bible and what they believe and that I'm not seeing any particular reason that marriage is inviolable where other things were not?


Well to be fair it's not JUST Christians who feel this way, nor are Christians the only religion who feel that way


Correct I'm not a Christian nor do i follow any other god or idol.

It seems people are stereotyping others a lot in this thread.


That's fine networkn, obviously I acknowledge that others are opposed and never suggested otherwise, but that does nothing address the specific question I pose.

I'm not attempting to stereotype anyone here, its just that several of the viewpoints put forward here as Christian viewpoints have ultimately amounted more or less to "because God said so, because the bible says so", but my point is that you can debate that also. I note now that some of those views have been offered in the spirit of devils advocacy, but not all of them.

To any Christians here unaware of the history of revisions to the bible, that would make for great bedtime reading for you :)




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  Reply # 788084 27-Mar-2013 16:30
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Klipspringer: Over 50% of kiwis are Christians so yes we really should be getting a Christian perspective.


If this debate was about changing a law that affected your rights and beliefs are a Christian, sure. It isn't. The law leaves all religious aspects of a marriage fully intact and changes only the legal aspect.

Religion has no relevance in this debate.




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  Reply # 788088 27-Mar-2013 16:35
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ajobbins:
Klipspringer: Over 50% of kiwis are Christians so yes we really should be getting a Christian perspective.


If this debate was about changing a law that affected your rights and beliefs are a Christian, sure. It isn't. The law leaves all religious aspects of a marriage fully intact and changes only the legal aspect.

Religion has no relevance in this debate.


I was under the impression that the law in it's current state requires that Churches marry Homosexual people, is that not correct?


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  Reply # 788091 27-Mar-2013 16:39
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networkn: I was under the impression that the law in it's current state requires that Churches marry Homosexual people, is that not correct?


Incorrect. The law from the beginning has retained the current right that religious organisations can, but are not required to solemnise a marriage that does not conform to the views of that organisation.

There was complaint during that select committee process that this was not explicit enough, so the select committee has specifically clarified and reaffirmed this point in an update to the bill that passed the second reading.




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