The NZ Herald Gay Marriage Poll discussion

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#788521 28-Mar-2013 12:30

ajobbins:
Klipspringer: Over 50% of kiwis are Christians so yes we really should be getting a Christian perspective.

If this debate was about changing a law that affected your rights and beliefs are a Christian, sure. It isn't. The law leaves all religious aspects of a marriage fully intact and changes only the legal aspect.

Religion has no relevance in this debate.

Then why do the gay rights advocates choose to make their arguments 'religious' in nature? Why do they insist that anyone objecting to their POV must be a hateful, bigoted christian?

BTW as any law change affects all New Zealanders, we all have the right to have an opinion on the law change, yet so many of those that support the law change say those who dont want it changed should not be allowed to have that opinion or be heard.

BTW I support the law change.

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#788542 28-Mar-2013 12:47

FYI. Accusations of bigotry (By the way, I am not making one) generally relate to the suppression of someone's rights.

Supporters of this bill aren't trying to suppress your right to you opinion on the matter. You are and always will be entitled to this.

Opponents of the bill have been accused on being bigots because they use their open view and opinion to try and suppress the rights of SS couples.

Eg.
If the law passes, opponents do not lose the right to hold their opinion on the matter.
If the law does not pass, SS couples still have their rights suppressed by those who hold a different opinion on the matter.

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tardtasticx

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#788544 28-Mar-2013 12:48

MaxLV:
tardtasticx: Im not sure why people think that because gays can get married, they'd automatically want to get married in a church run my some bigoted paster or whatever. I wouldnt step foot in a place that preaches hate, none of my friends would either, gay or straight.

So you're saying that because someone, or any organisation of people dont hold the views you do they're bigoted and preach hate?

IOW no one should be allowed to hold view that you disagree with. Who are you saying is bigoted again?

Disclaimer: I am NOT christian (dont believe in or support any religious beliefs) but fully support the law change to allow gay marriage.

What I DONT support is your bigoted arguments against those who disagree with your hateful views, arguments and denial of other peoples right to have opinions different from yours.

Okay, so I'm a bigot?

These people are going around trying to fight against my human rights.
Their reasoning is because it doesnt suit their definition of marriage (between 1 man and 1 woman). So basically because I believe that I should be able to get married to another man, my views differ from theirs. They dont like that and refuse to let me act on my beliefs simply because they say so. How does that not sound like bigotry to you?

I'm sorry but when someone starts denying people the right to freedom of religion and the right to live how they want to, it stops being free speech and becomes hate.

Years ago women couldnt vote. If someone went around saying they shouldnt vote anymore, they'd be called a sexist.
Years ago slavery was common place. If someone said slaves should be legal, they'd be called a racist.
So what the hell is different? Just because their view might be 'defendable by a book' (might be, not all people who disagree with gay marriage are religious), it doesnt make it hate?

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jeffnz

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#788564 28-Mar-2013 13:00

People need to settle down in here and stop calling others names.

Lets take the emotion out of this people and get back to respecting others views be it for or against.

If you can't take the emotion out of your post go for a walk and try again later.

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ajobbins

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#788568 28-Mar-2013 13:03

jeffnz: People need to settle down in here and stop calling others names.

Lets take the emotion out of this people and get back to respecting others views be it for or against.

If you can't take the emotion out of your post go for a walk and try again later.

Yep, agree. Obviously there is a difference of opinions here, and that is absolutely fine, be we need to have a respectful debate.

Everyone has the right to their opinion and their rights to voice it.

As Evelyn Beatrice Hall once said "I may disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"

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jeffnz

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#788589 28-Mar-2013 13:13

be interesting to see if it came to it, how many would defend others to teh death, sorry just a bit OTT :)

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MaxLV

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#788592 28-Mar-2013 13:15

tardtasticx:
MaxLV:
tardtasticx: Im not sure why people think that because gays can get married, they'd automatically want to get married in a church run my some bigoted paster or whatever. I wouldnt step foot in a place that preaches hate, none of my friends would either, gay or straight.

So you're saying that because someone, or any organisation of people dont hold the views you do they're bigoted and preach hate?

IOW no one should be allowed to hold view that you disagree with. Who are you saying is bigoted again?

Disclaimer: I am NOT christian (dont believe in or support any religious beliefs) but fully support the law change to allow gay marriage.

What I DONT support is your bigoted arguments against those who disagree with your hateful views, arguments and denial of other peoples right to have opinions different from yours.

Okay, so I'm a bigot?

These people are going around trying to fight against my human rights.
Their reasoning is because it doesnt suit their definition of marriage (between 1 man and 1 woman). So basically because I believe that I should be able to get married to another man, my views differ from theirs. They dont like that and refuse to let me act on my beliefs simply because they say so. How does that not sound like bigotry to you?

I'm sorry but when someone starts denying people the right to freedom of religion and the right to live how they want to, it stops being free speech and becomes hate.

Years ago women couldnt vote. If someone went around saying they shouldnt vote anymore, they'd be called a sexist.
Years ago slavery was common place. If someone said slaves should be legal, they'd be called a racist.
So what the hell is different? Just because their view might be 'defendable by a book' (might be, not all people who disagree with gay marriage are religious), it doesnt make it hate?

Yes you are a bigot.

You are going round trying to fight against other peoples human rights to have different/opposing opinions to you.

So you object to their definition of marriage? What's your point? Why do you demand they change their definition of marriage to match yours?

They hold a different opinion to marriage than you and live their lives and marriages by their definition, NOT yours. Get over yourself already!

You have no more right to force them to change their opinion on marriage than they do you. And yet that is what you are insisting they do.

You, like most gay rights advocates, choose to make your arguments for same sex marriage about religious beliefs, morality and how your arguments are right and theirs wrong, and then post bigoted hateful opinions about how you're right, and everyone disagrees with you is wrong.

The debate is not about religion, beliefs, or morality. It is about the legal definition of marriage, thats all.

Today, those who believe in multipartner marriages are not allowed to practice their definition of marriage because it is illegal to do so. Once same sex marriage is legalised, let's change all the other currently illegal definitions of marriage as well and make them legal.

Any objection to that happening?

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#788594 28-Mar-2013 13:15

Klipspringer:

But it is wrong as per my religion.

Are you saying I should teach my children against my religion?

And yes I believe people choose to be gay. Sure not all of them but the absolute majority of them.

In my opinion the way I see it is that gay thoughts could be switched off just like any other sinfull thoughts.

I'm thoroughly impressed. You're actually claiming that you can just "switch off" the Biological Imperative. You sir, are some sort of psychological god with abilities like that.

You cannot "switch off" those types of thoughts. They're caused by a biological imperative driven by hormones that all healthy people have. And by no means are any thoughts "sinful" - what you choose to do with them determines the morality of the situation.

And I absolutely oppose your belief that people "choose" to be gay. There are numerous documentaries and studies that blow this silly claim right out of the water (and frankly, with the persecution that segment of society gets, I very much doubt anyone would actually choose that lifestyle were it a conscious choice).

I have to admit, your posts are literally enraging me. I cannot understand how anyone can be so closed-minded, discriminatory, and - dare I say it - bigoted. And the thought that you actually teach a new generation of children your hatred actually infuriates me.

Does not your bible say, "judge not, lest ye be judged"? If it's so wrong, then that's between them and their deity. Not you. Not your kids.

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#788600 28-Mar-2013 13:28

tardtasticx: I'm sorry but when someone starts denying people the right to freedom of religion and the right to live how they want to, it stops being free speech and becomes hate.

Do all people that have a differing opinion to you automatically hate you?
If not, what evidence do you have that the people that oppose your opinion in this case genuinely hate you?

A phrase that often comes up in Christian discussions on controversial topics like this is "love the sinner, hate the sin". Sometimes it is difficult to convey this position.

I personally don't hate you. Far from it: I respect you as a human being, equal to any other person.

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#788603 28-Mar-2013 13:29

Klipspringer: And yes I believe people choose to be gay. Sure not all of them but the absolute majority of them.

Can you choose to be gay?

I'm straight and I can't choose to be gay. I'm simply not attracted to members of the same sex. Nothing I can do about it.

Maybe you and Colin Craig have some super bi-sexual power the rest of us lack?

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mm1352000

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#788606 28-Mar-2013 13:35

Kyanar: I'm thoroughly impressed. You're actually claiming that you can just "switch off" the Biological Imperative. You sir, are some sort of psychological god with abilities like that.

You cannot "switch off" those types of thoughts. They're caused by a biological imperative driven by hormones that all healthy people have.

I'm not familiar with the biological imperative, but I think we all choose not to act on impulses every day. They can't be switched off but they can be ignored.

Note: I am not claiming that homosexuals choose to be homosexuals. Nor am I agreeing with the opposing view. I haven't formed an opinion in the same way that I haven't formed an opinion about creation vs. evolution.

And by no means are any thoughts "sinful" - what you choose to do with them determines the morality of the situation.

Christians believe thoughts can be sinful:

Matthew 5:28 says, "But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

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#788610 28-Mar-2013 13:35

Kyanar:
I'm thoroughly impressed. You're actually claiming that you can just "switch off" the Biological Imperative. You sir, are some sort of psychological god with abilities like that.

You cannot "switch off" those types of thoughts. They're caused by a biological imperative driven by hormones that all healthy people have. And by no means are any thoughts "sinful" - what you choose to do with them determines the morality of the situation.

Read my post again. I as a heterosexual adult who is married also have to “switch off” that Biological Imperative towards other women. Its a choice to not let your sexual desires rule your lifestyle. Some allow their desires to take precedence. Some block them out. I choose to block them out because if I don’t it would destroy my marriage with my wife with whom I plan to stay married to.

Why do you feel that only gay people have these thoughts? We all human and all face temptation. Gay or not gay.

Kyanar: And I absolutely oppose your belief that people "choose" to be gay. There are numerous documentaries and studies that blow this silly claim right out of the water (and frankly, with the persecution that segment of society gets, I very much doubt anyone would actually choose that lifestyle were it a conscious choice).

There is no proof anywhere that suggests otherwise. There may be the odd study by some gay group that suggests otherwise yes. But other than that I don’t believe it.

Kyanar: I have to admit, your posts are literally enraging me. I cannot understand how anyone can be so closed-minded, discriminatory, and - dare I say it - bigoted. And the thought that you actually teach a new generation of children your hatred actually infuriates me.

I don’t care what you think of my opinion. Its my opinion and I have the right to have it.

Does not your bible say, "judge not, lest ye be judged"? If it's so wrong, then that's between them and their deity. Not you. Not your kids.

Who’s judging? Go back to my previous posts and see where I said I teach my children not to judge. I’m not judging anybody. I believe that being gay is a choice. And I believe that gay marriage should not be allowed. Sounds like you telling me I can’t have an opinion.

Who’s the bigot?

Klipspringer

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#788616 28-Mar-2013 13:42

mm1352000:
Christians believe thoughts can be sinful:

Matthew 5:28 says, "But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

I read that like this:
If you allow yourself to have those thoughts of lust you will eventually commit adultery.

Rather turn those lustful thoughts off if you married. Thanks for quoting this.

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#788637 28-Mar-2013 13:53

ajobbins:
Klipspringer: And yes I believe people choose to be gay. Sure not all of them but the absolute majority of them.

Can you choose to be gay?

I'm straight and I can't choose to be gay. I'm simply not attracted to members of the same sex. Nothing I can do about it.

It is a fair question, and to be honest I find it really difficult to answer it.

My personal position:
My beliefs about homosexuality are tied to my search for wider absolute truth.

If Christianity is truth then I find no evidence that God created or designed homosexuality, though there is much evidence that he designed male and female to be together. So this would suggest that homosexuality may be a choice. That is obviously at odds with the personal experiences that people report, so how do I reconcile that? I don't know - I really don't. The Bible is not a scientific textbook with direct answers to such questions, so there is much debate.

If science and its explanations of human origin are truth then I guess one only needs to find a reasonable cause for homosexuality to develop via evolution. I have a problem with evolution in that I find it difficult to believe in so-called "macro-evolution". Micro-evolution is fine, but to me that does not imply macro-evolution also works. On the other hand I'm also a creation sceptic - I have yet to find any one piece of evidence that convinces me that creation is fact. Though I've seen some compelling circumstantial evidence, it is always hard to know whether that evidence has been refuted by more recent scientific findings.

I have a question for you as well: if being gay is not a choice, what determines whether you are gay?
I guess the accepted default answer would be genetics, and that research is ongoing to identify the responsible mechanism?

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#788645 28-Mar-2013 14:02

ajobbins:
Klipspringer: And yes I believe people choose to be gay. Sure not all of them but the absolute majority of them.

Can you choose to be gay?

Do all gay relationships involve sex?

The answer to that one is No. So yes I could probably choose to start being gay just as long as it does not involve any of the above.

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