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121 posts

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  Reply # 792500 3-Apr-2013 16:28
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Klipspringer:
I agree. It can do with some clarification.

Lets make it a “perfect relationship” then. A  great loving marriage between a husband and wife. No social issues, a  loving relationship. A family raising kids.

Now take that exact same “perfect” relationship and substitute the female from above with a male. Or Vice-versa

Which family structure is best for the upbringing of the child?

It’s a no brainer.


I can only answer that with: I don't know, I've never met anyone in a perfect relationship, and I don't expect to ever. Plenty in good, or even great relationships, but perfect? No.

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  Reply # 792553 3-Apr-2013 17:33
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Klipspringer: Lets make it a “perfect relationship” then. A  great loving marriage between a husband and wife. No social issues, a  loving relationship. A family raising kids.

Now take that exact same “perfect” relationship and substitute the female from above with a male. Or Vice-versa

Which family structure is best for the upbringing of the child?

It’s a no brainer.


"which family structure is best for the upbringing of the child" is whichever family structure shows this child love. It could be a mother and father, two fathers or two mothers.

Yes, a no brainer.






 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 792617 3-Apr-2013 19:11
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Klipspringer:
1080p:
Klipspringer:
Beccara:

By your argument divorce should be outlawed and single mothers too. It's just staggering that you apply this argument in such a limited view


Do you believe that a healthy home with a loving mother and a father is the absolute best environment to bring up a child?




How will this amendment affect those bringing up children in that environment?


Answer the question.

So far only one person has done so.


I think the family which shows their child love is the best place to raise that child. Now answer my question.

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  Reply # 792637 3-Apr-2013 20:04
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Klipspringer:
kyhwana2:

Since gay marriage doesn't effect those people against, given that the (religious) people against are cancelled out by the ones for, (or vice versa as you point out) and gives benefits to those who do get married, it's pretty obvious that it should be legal!


Just because it does not affect me, it does not mean I don't have the right to oppose it, voice my opinions and even vote against it.

I don’t believe its obvious at all.

NZ’ers Asked To Sign Marriage Pledge

Just made my pledge against gay marriage on mymarriagepledge.org.nz

Edit: Dam... I took the bait....



Oh snap you did.  
It does mean you don't have a right to oppose it!


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  Reply # 792638 3-Apr-2013 20:05
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Klipspringer:
1080p:
2) Best raises children.

- There is no evidence of this. Feel free to provide some.



The best way to answer this one is by asking ourselves what is the absolute best for a child?

And that answer is very simple.

Every kid deserves a Mom and a Dad...

One can argue all day and go around in circles about some families etc and bad upbringings of some kids in failed marriages with a Mom and a Dad. But simply put, nothing is better than bringing up a child in a healthy loving home with a Mom and a Dad.

So if nothing is better.. Then why settle on something than is worse than the absolute best for a child?

And the answer to that one is simply that gay couples are putting themselves and their own selfish desires before the kids.




In that case, why isn't divorce illegal? I assume you'd be FOR making divorce illegal?


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  Reply # 792640 3-Apr-2013 20:09
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Klipspringer:
Beccara:

By your argument divorce should be outlawed and single mothers too. It's just staggering that you apply this argument in such a limited view


Do you believe that a healthy home with a loving mother and a father is the absolute best environment to bring up a child?




Certainly, but lets face reality here. Children are raised in environments that aren't those.
Frankly, a child/teen (having been one!) would be better off being raised in an environment with two (or more! Though I can't speak for that personally) loving parents.

So are you saying that children shouldn't have the best environment possible to be raised in? Because by being against equal marriage, that's what you're saying.


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  Reply # 792643 3-Apr-2013 20:16
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Klipspringer:
gzt:
Klipspringer: And the answer to that one is simply that gay couples are putting themselves and their own selfish desires before the kids.

Since many people make a decision to get married as part of an effort/commitment to provide a stable home for their children - you are completely wrong about that.

Why is it you believe that a stable family life for a gay couple should be any different to that of a heterosexual couple?


H

Simply put. A gay couple raising children will stand out as being different.

Think back to your childhood. Is it nice growing up "different"? Children have no shame and I think the article above sums it up pretty well.

That’s my first point.

My second point is that in a healthy loving home with a Mom and a Dad there are certain parenting tasks that are best left to the Mom, and certain other tasks best left to Dad. Again I am not saying that doing these tasks is not possible for either parent to do.

I could bring up my daughters if need be on my own. It would be hard, but it would not be what’s best for my kids.


Guess what? It's people like you that mean a child of a gay couple is different. It's YOUR fault. How about less of an bigot (almost used another word there) and oh look your first point is suddenly invalid.

For your second point, you're being misogynist. But then you say that it's not impossible for either parent to do those jobs? Which is it?

By saying equal marriage shouldn't be illegal, you're basically saying that you shouldn't be allowed to raise your daughters on your own, right? If you're not, then why are you against equal marriage?



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  Reply # 792647 3-Apr-2013 20:19
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Klipspringer:
freitasm:
Klipspringer: And the answer to that one is simply that gay couples are putting themselves and their own selfish desires before the kids.


Wait a minute. If the gay couples can't have kids anyway, what's the problem of them putting their own selfish desires before the kids they can't have?

I can't see a problem here. Let them get married, they won't be taking anything away from straight parents with kids that also want to get married.



My comment was about gay couples raising kids.


So are you for or against equal marriage? Gay couples can already adopt children, just individually.
This actually makes the children worse off, as the two parents that raise them aren't equal. The one that doesn't "officially" adopt them won't be recognised (legally) as a parent. If something happens to the parent that is legally recognised, the 2nd won't have any legal rights to continue raising that child. The child would legally be an orphan. Are you saying that'd be a good thing? 

If you say it's NOT a good then, then the only alternative would to say that yes, the 2nd (not legally recognised) parent is their parent and can continue to raise them.. How now brown cow?


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  Reply # 792654 3-Apr-2013 20:33
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Klipspringer:
1080p:

How will this amendment affect those bringing up children in that environment?


Answer the question.

So far only one person has done so.


It won't. Oh look now there's two!

 

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  Reply # 792657 3-Apr-2013 20:35
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Klipspringer: [
I agree. It can do with some clarification.

Lets make it a “perfect relationship” then. A  great loving marriage between a husband and wife. No social issues, a  loving relationship. A family raising kids.

Now take that exact same “perfect” relationship and substitute the female from above with a male. Or Vice-versa

Which family structure is best for the upbringing of the child?

It’s a no brainer.


You obviously live in a utopian world where no one dies or falls out of love with their (opposite sex) partner and gets divorced!

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Master Geek
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  Reply # 792686 3-Apr-2013 21:05
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kyhwana2:

You obviously live in a utopian world where no one dies or falls out of love with their (opposite sex) partner and gets divorced!


Or wakes up one day and thinks, damn, I seem to have fallen for someone who isn't my spouse, and double-damn, they are the same sex as me. I'll have to give up my children.

But more importantly, Klipspringer, going back to a same-sex couple adopting issue, do you accept that there is a real difference between what is ideal in a perfect world, and what should be against the law?



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  Reply # 792828 4-Apr-2013 00:21
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In my opinion, this debate boils down to what is right and what is wrong. We have a minority segment of society doing something wrong who want to legitimise their behaviour by legalising it.

If I was a repressed Cannibal; i.e. modern society despised me and would discourage me from 'outing' my cannibalistic tendencies, if I made enough noise in the media about my rights do you think it right for society to lobby for cannibalism to be legalised?

If you want to know the difference between right and wrong don't ask the government, and the majority of religious outfits seem to have no concept of this any longer.

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  Reply # 792833 4-Apr-2013 00:36
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Don't worry, folks, nobody is asking you to give up your current spouse and jump into an arranged marriage with someone of your own gender, they are just saying that anyone not yet married needs to find a same-sex partner. No, wait, that's not right, either...

Let's see, the only affect this will have on those in a current marriage, or those who might enter a man/woman marriage in the future, is...
1. we'll get invited to more weddings.
2. there is no 2.


In my opinion.

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  Reply # 792887 4-Apr-2013 08:17
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toprob:
Klipspringer:
I agree. It can do with some clarification.

Lets make it a “perfect relationship” then. A  great loving marriage between a husband and wife. No social issues, a  loving relationship. A family raising kids.

Now take that exact same “perfect” relationship and substitute the female from above with a male. Or Vice-versa

Which family structure is best for the upbringing of the child?

It’s a no brainer.


I can only answer that with: I don't know, I've never met anyone in a perfect relationship, and I don't expect to ever. Plenty in good, or even great relationships, but perfect? No.


OK then don’t make it a perfect relationship then. Just make both the same. Good, great you choose. The only difference is a gay couple opposed to a Mom and Dad. Everything else is the same.

Which environment is better for the kid to grow up in?

freitasm:
"which family structure is best for the upbringing of the child" is whichever family structure shows this child love. It could be a mother and father, two fathers or two mothers.


As per above. My question is about both environments (one gay and one with Mom and Dad). Everything else healthy.

Which one is better for the child?

1080p:
I think the family which shows their child love is the best place to raise that child.


I agree. In this case both families are showing the child love. Which environment is the better one?

kyhwana2:
Guess what? It's people like you that mean a child of a gay couple is different. It's YOUR fault. How about less of an bigot (almost used another word there) and oh look your first point is suddenly invalid.

For your second point, you're being misogynist. But then you say that it's not impossible for either parent to do those jobs? Which is it?

By saying equal marriage shouldn't be illegal, you're basically saying that you shouldn't be allowed to raise your daughters on your own, right? If you're not, then why are you against equal marriage?



Again as per my second point. I'm by no means saying that single parenting, gay couples raising kids is bad. I am simply asking the question,  "which of the two upbringings is best for a child?"

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  Reply # 792889 4-Apr-2013 08:19
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Klipspringer: 
freitasm:
"which family structure is best for the upbringing of the child" is whichever family structure shows this child love. It could be a mother and father, two fathers or two mothers.


As per above. My question is about both environments (one gay and one with Mom and Dad). Everything else healthy.

Which one is better for the child?


Until you provide scientific evidence that one is better than the other I'd say both can get the same results.

Klipspringer: As per above. My question is about both environments (one gay and one with Mom and Dad). Everything else healthy.

Which one is better for the child?


Do you have the answer to this question? Is it based in scientific evidence or custom passed from generation to generation?





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