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  #802525 19-Apr-2013 20:57
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KiwiNZ: I think you need to do some reading about what targeted assistance is and why it is affective.


Or you could sum it up for me or provide a source for further investigation. Working in social services you would be very familiar with that information I would guess. Simply offering a short sentence assertion that you are right is a sure fire way to discourage further constructive discussion. I am a genuinely interested party who fails to see the inequality based on race that you obviously do.

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  #802529 19-Apr-2013 21:03
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Cambo:
nate:

Such as...


It's difficult to explain.

NZ european's cover the whole socio-economic spectrum, from poor to wealthy.
Maori and Pacific Islanders lean more towards the low to below-median on the spectrum.

It is plain to see that Maori and P.I are less represented in higher education, but hard to find out why.

Maybe it's just the 'western/european labour/capitalism' system that is the issue. It does seem fair though - everyone who has the money can pay for the tuition and get the same education as anyone else.
But maybe it's somehow easier for us NZ Europeans to go through this kind of system, because we have hundreds of years of it in our blood.
The Maori and P.I peoples have only recently been introduced to this educational system, so maybe it's taking time to see changes.

You need to have a decent upbringing with some kind of values and drive and encouragement in order to be able to get yourself through higher education.

Also, some cultures have never had to have large industrial workforces in order to keep their nation running. Some have had more basic hunter/gatherer/trader lifestyles up until only a few hundred years ago.


The educational system has been in place for at least a few generations. In addition, current Maori & European students are going through the education system for the first time each. It is not as if European students have some "I'v done this already" advantage.

Arguing it is 'in the blood' is ridiculous and ignorant.

 
 
 
 


MikeB4
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  #802531 19-Apr-2013 21:07
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Targeted assistance is a process by which special funding or resources are provided under special rules to address an imbalance or to remedy a particular set of circumstances. It is used in numerous circumstances, for example a Blind person in receipt of an Invalids Benefit has a higher income exemption that other disabled, this is targeted assistance to address unique issues with regards to obtaining or retaining employment for the Blind, it is not discriminatory against other disabled it is targeted assistance.

1080p
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  #802532 19-Apr-2013 21:08
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NZtechfreak:
1080p: We live in an equal society where every person has the same chances as another when it comes to education. This is especially true in tertiary education given that the only requirement for a student loan is that you pass...


If you believe everyone in our society has the same chances as everyone else where education is concerned I don't know what to say you to, that view is so clearly divorced from the actual reality of the world it's delusional.


Is this the reply to my question you were referring to? It does not read like an answer to me.


NZtechfreak:
1080p:
NZtechfreak:
1080p: We live in an equal society where every person has the same chances as another when it comes to education. This is especially true in tertiary education given that the only requirement for a student loan is that you pass...


If you believe everyone in our society has the same chances as everyone else where education is concerned I don't know what to say you to, that view is so clearly divorced from the actual reality of the world it's delusional.


Fire away. Feel free to educate me on the inequality in our education system.


The problem isn't in the education system per se, there are wider societal problems that are barriers to access before you even get that far (again that goes to the problem of your first proposition - we do not live in an equal society).


OK. Society is not equal for every person. This is true regardless of race and irrelevant to the education system which is perfectly equal. If you work hard you will pass regardless of race. Interest free loans are available to every person regardless of race.

MikeB4
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  #802534 19-Apr-2013 21:10
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1080p:
Cambo:
nate:

Such as...


It's difficult to explain.

NZ european's cover the whole socio-economic spectrum, from poor to wealthy.
Maori and Pacific Islanders lean more towards the low to below-median on the spectrum.

It is plain to see that Maori and P.I are less represented in higher education, but hard to find out why.

Maybe it's just the 'western/european labour/capitalism' system that is the issue. It does seem fair though - everyone who has the money can pay for the tuition and get the same education as anyone else.
But maybe it's somehow easier for us NZ Europeans to go through this kind of system, because we have hundreds of years of it in our blood.
The Maori and P.I peoples have only recently been introduced to this educational system, so maybe it's taking time to see changes.

You need to have a decent upbringing with some kind of values and drive and encouragement in order to be able to get yourself through higher education.

Also, some cultures have never had to have large industrial workforces in order to keep their nation running. Some have had more basic hunter/gatherer/trader lifestyles up until only a few hundred years ago.


The educational system has been in place for at least a few generations. In addition, current Maori & European students are going through the education system for the first time each. It is not as if European students have some "I'v done this already" advantage.

Arguing it is 'in the blood' is ridiculous and ignorant.


oh for goodness sake IT IS NOTHING to do with blood it is to do with socio economic circumstances that is predominately disadvantaging a sector of our community.

1080p
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  #802535 19-Apr-2013 21:11
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KiwiNZ: Targeted assistance is a process by which special funding or resources are provided under special rules to address an imbalance or to remedy a particular set of circumstances. It is used in numerous circumstances, for example a Blind person in receipt of an Invalids Benefit has a higher income exemption that other disabled, this is targeted assistance to address unique issues with regards to obtaining or retaining employment for the Blind, it is not discriminatory against other disabled it is targeted assistance.


Agreed. Targeting assistance to blind people is not discriminatory. There are genuine hardships around employment that no other group experience. What if i were to offer targeted assistance to blind Maori? That would be discriminatory because I am arbitrarily assisting a particular race for no other reason than their race.

MikeB4
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  #802538 19-Apr-2013 21:17
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1080p:
KiwiNZ: Targeted assistance is a process by which special funding or resources are provided under special rules to address an imbalance or to remedy a particular set of circumstances. It is used in numerous circumstances, for example a Blind person in receipt of an Invalids Benefit has a higher income exemption that other disabled, this is targeted assistance to address unique issues with regards to obtaining or retaining employment for the Blind, it is not discriminatory against other disabled it is targeted assistance.


Agreed. Targeting assistance to blind people is not discriminatory. There are genuine hardships around employment that no other group experience. What if i were to offer targeted assistance to blind Maori? That would be discriminatory because I am arbitrarily assisting a particular race for no other reason than their race.


clearly you have no desire to understand, I will leave with your blinkers on.

 
 
 
 


1080p
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  #802586 19-Apr-2013 23:54
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KiwiNZ:
1080p:
KiwiNZ: Targeted assistance is a process by which special funding or resources are provided under special rules to address an imbalance or to remedy a particular set of circumstances. It is used in numerous circumstances, for example a Blind person in receipt of an Invalids Benefit has a higher income exemption that other disabled, this is targeted assistance to address unique issues with regards to obtaining or retaining employment for the Blind, it is not discriminatory against other disabled it is targeted assistance.


Agreed. Targeting assistance to blind people is not discriminatory. There are genuine hardships around employment that no other group experience. What if i were to offer targeted assistance to blind Maori? That would be discriminatory because I am arbitrarily assisting a particular race for no other reason than their race.


clearly you have no desire to understand, I will leave with your blinkers on.


I actually have a voracious desire to understand. All I am being given for an explanation is that for various foggily described socio-economic reasons which are in no way associated with education (and, coincidentally, apply to people of all races) particular ethnic groups deserve targeted financial assistance and that is in no way racially discriminatory and is actually a good thing.

I really hope you can see how messed up a point of view that is. An attitude like that helps no one in the end. Sure, discrimination of particular groups has occurred in the past but I think enough time has passed that everyone in this country can look themselves in the mirror and say with certainty that racial discrimination is something that no longer has a place anywhere in law or social policy and that has been the case for a good period of time.

If particular groups tend toward lower socio-economic status then I would argue that there are reasons other than access to education that cause them and further supporting this type of behaviour is nothing more than enabling the problem to continue by disguising it through 'assistance' in areas that do not need it.

The truth of the matter is that everyone - regardless of race - has a different experience of life. Some people have a much greater set of challenges to overcome but the education system in New Zealand does not discriminate based on race and neither should scholarships.

There it is. I'm disappointed I need to spell out something so basic to the rights New Zealand guarantees to every person who lives here but apparently certain types of racism are more OK than others.

MikeB4
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  #802613 20-Apr-2013 06:03
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1080p:
KiwiNZ:
1080p:
KiwiNZ: Targeted assistance is a process by which special funding or resources are provided under special rules to address an imbalance or to remedy a particular set of circumstances. It is used in numerous circumstances, for example a Blind person in receipt of an Invalids Benefit has a higher income exemption that other disabled, this is targeted assistance to address unique issues with regards to obtaining or retaining employment for the Blind, it is not discriminatory against other disabled it is targeted assistance.


Agreed. Targeting assistance to blind people is not discriminatory. There are genuine hardships around employment that no other group experience. What if i were to offer targeted assistance to blind Maori? That would be discriminatory because I am arbitrarily assisting a particular race for no other reason than their race.


clearly you have no desire to understand, I will leave with your blinkers on.


I actually have a voracious desire to understand. All I am being given for an explanation is that for various foggily described socio-economic reasons which are in no way associated with education (and, coincidentally, apply to people of all races) particular ethnic groups deserve targeted financial assistance and that is in no way racially discriminatory and is actually a good thing.

I really hope you can see how messed up a point of view that is. An attitude like that helps no one in the end. Sure, discrimination of particular groups has occurred in the past but I think enough time has passed that everyone in this country can look themselves in the mirror and say with certainty that racial discrimination is something that no longer has a place anywhere in law or social policy and that has been the case for a good period of time.

If particular groups tend toward lower socio-economic status then I would argue that there are reasons other than access to education that cause them and further supporting this type of behaviour is nothing more than enabling the problem to continue by disguising it through 'assistance' in areas that do not need it.

The truth of the matter is that everyone - regardless of race - has a different experience of life. Some people have a much greater set of challenges to overcome but the education system in New Zealand does not discriminate based on race and neither should scholarships.

There it is. I'm disappointed I need to spell out something so basic to the rights New Zealand guarantees to every person who lives here but apparently certain types of racism are more OK than others.


if you cannot see that socio economic circumstances are linked to education access then you really have your blinkers 100% closed or worse.

lucky015
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  #802614 20-Apr-2013 06:13
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KiwiNZ:
1080p:
Cambo:
nate:

Such as...


It's difficult to explain.

NZ european's cover the whole socio-economic spectrum, from poor to wealthy.
Maori and Pacific Islanders lean more towards the low to below-median on the spectrum.

It is plain to see that Maori and P.I are less represented in higher education, but hard to find out why.

Maybe it's just the 'western/european labour/capitalism' system that is the issue. It does seem fair though - everyone who has the money can pay for the tuition and get the same education as anyone else.
But maybe it's somehow easier for us NZ Europeans to go through this kind of system, because we have hundreds of years of it in our blood.
The Maori and P.I peoples have only recently been introduced to this educational system, so maybe it's taking time to see changes.

You need to have a decent upbringing with some kind of values and drive and encouragement in order to be able to get yourself through higher education.

Also, some cultures have never had to have large industrial workforces in order to keep their nation running. Some have had more basic hunter/gatherer/trader lifestyles up until only a few hundred years ago.


The educational system has been in place for at least a few generations. In addition, current Maori & European students are going through the education system for the first time each. It is not as if European students have some "I'v done this already" advantage.

Arguing it is 'in the blood' is ridiculous and ignorant.


oh for goodness sake IT IS NOTHING to do with blood it is to do with socio economic circumstances that is predominately disadvantaging a sector of our community.


Then why is it limited to specific races? This leaves the people of other races in the same situation ineligible for the same offer.

At the risk of sounding callus and racist how can the white kid in a low economic area be considered to be at less of a disadvantage than a maori kid in a high economic area?

And on the same note why should one have to work harder than the other to get into or even pass the same class?

6FIEND
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  #802650 20-Apr-2013 09:00
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So far as I have been able to ascertain from this thread, it seems that nobody has actually considered whether these 3 aspects of race-based scholarships are aligned:
  1. Intent
  2. Justification
  3. Outcome

Intent
We need to be clear about the intent.  The immediate intent is to encourage a greater level of participation in tertiary study by a particular race.  (By definition, a question of bloodline.)  The 'longer-term' intent is to achieve greater participation by people of that race in professions where they are under-represented.  Eg.
NZtechfreak: You can't see how having say a health workforce that better represents our population benefits everyone, and particularly minority group health service users, who have tended to be poorly represented in those professions?

All of which is are good intentions - for the members of that particular race.  (Not so good perhaps if you're an Indian, or Chinese, or Norwegian student, and entry to your profession of choice is denied because a quota system has been established)

Justification
Clearly, the justification for promoting opportunities & funding to one particular race over another is because that race suffers disproportionately in socio economic terms.
KiwiNZ: oh for goodness sake IT IS NOTHING to do with blood it is to do with socio economic circumstances that is predominately disadvantaging a sector of our community.

Leaving aside the incongruity that "it has nothing to do with blood" but that we will use blood to determine eligibility...
I believe that this is a decidedly poor justification.  The very same statistics show dis-proportionate under-performance at all levels of education.  Eg.
Nationally, 79.2 per cent of participating New Zealand European Year 11 students achieved NCEA Level 1, while 52.8 per cent of Maori and 47.8 per cent of Pacific Island students passed.

From http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10571960
So - this is the outcome from a 100% funded educational system.  The problem still exists even when someone else is paying the entire bill.  It is not about funding or gaining entry - it is about fostering a culture that values education and embraces it.  These qualities exist in many 'poor' races.

Outcome
We see that the outcome is in fact matching the intent, one case at a time.
driller2000: I was Dux of my school, with a solid A Bursary - so standard entry path to Akl Uni Eng School.

This is a success story for Maori Scholarships in that they provided for another Maori to attend university and go on to forge a successful professional career.  However - it has nothing to do with the justification.  This individual performed exceptionally in academic terms despite the socio-economic problems effecting his 'race'.  The scholarship recognised that potential and encouraged him further (as all good scholarships should) but it did nothing to address or assist the large group of failing students from that race who were used as the 'cause' for race-based privilege.


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  #802675 20-Apr-2013 09:50
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It seems you guys are under the impression the these scholarships are offered exclusively for Maori? There are scholarships for Pacific Islanders, women, disabled people, for financial hardship, and if I looked I'm sure we'd see many other groups specifically represented by scholarships. These are aren't been offered to the exclusion of catering to other groups who suffer inequality or hardship in society.




Twitter: @nztechfreak
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qwerty7

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  #802835 20-Apr-2013 17:35
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If all cultures were at the same socio economic level I believe race specific scholarships and grants are racist and should not exist in no way what so ever. But race specific grants and scholarships do exist because it is an easy way to target worse off groups.

I believe some cultures on an overall basis are in lower socio economic groups because of 3 reasons:
  1. Inheritance (treaty effects of land loss on Maori/coming from poorer financial areas e.g pi)
  2. Attitudes among that culture (blame culture / victim mentality)
  3. Racist perceptions of other cultures (applying for jobs/ call me a dog ill act like a dog)
In practice race specific scholarships and grants technically should help lift the socio economic level of a group which is worse off and therefore counter balance the inheritance effect. However I see no benefit from race specific scholarships and grants (handouts) in relation to the attitude effect or racist perceptions of other cultures. It highlights the fact the minority is 'owed' something and causes racist views in society.  

I still can't see why assistance cannot be targeted purely on non racial factors such as income. Even if it means the majority of that assistance goes to a minority culture which is worse off in overall socio economic terms. 


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  #802892 20-Apr-2013 19:35
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NZtechfreak: It seems you guys are under the impression the these scholarships are offered exclusively for Maori? There are scholarships for Pacific Islanders, women, disabled people, for financial hardship, and if I looked I'm sure we'd see many other groups specifically represented by scholarships. These are aren't been offered to the exclusion of catering to other groups who suffer inequality or hardship in society.


I'm arguing that scholarships based on race are racist and therefore wrong. Scholarships based on disability of financial hardship are fine. Scholarships for females only are wrong in my mind too.

MikeB4
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  #802898 20-Apr-2013 19:49
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1080p:
NZtechfreak: It seems you guys are under the impression the these scholarships are offered exclusively for Maori? There are scholarships for Pacific Islanders, women, disabled people, for financial hardship, and if I looked I'm sure we'd see many other groups specifically represented by scholarships. These are aren't been offered to the exclusion of catering to other groups who suffer inequality or hardship in society.


I'm arguing that scholarships based on race are racist and therefore wrong. Scholarships based on disability of financial hardship are fine. Scholarships for females only are wrong in my mind too.


one last time

look at it as not by race but by a sector of our society that needs additional assistance to correct a very very real problem. Is that really that hard to grasp?

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