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NZtechfreak
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  #801050 17-Apr-2013 15:18
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qwerty7:
NZtechfreak:
qwerty7:
NZtechfreak:
qwerty7:Also I somehow doubt the rate of 'malingering' does not differ between races


Oh really? So which races are inherently predisposed to malingering? I'd love to know. Why stop there though right? Rates of all sorts of undesirable characteristics probably vary with race eh? /s



undesirable characteristics do vary with race. 


Please elaborate, being as specific and thorough as possible as possible about this. I'm all ears.

See ethnicity of prisoners. 
http://www.corrections.govt.nz/about-us/facts_and_statistics/prisons/ps-march-2012.html


In the 2006 census of New Zealand 67.6 percent of the population identified ethnically as "New Zealand European" and 14.6 percent as Maori.

Based on those stats 67.6 % of the prison population should be nz European and 14.6 % of the prison population should be Maori. But that is not the case, 51.3% of the prison population is Maori. 


...and you are saying that this is because they are Maori, and a result of undesirable characteristics that are more prevalent in Maori?

FYI, that isn't a question, because that is exactly what you are saying. The question mark is there because you should probably think about what you are saying a bit more carefully, because what you have actually said is at best repugnant and indicative of the lowest-quality "talk-show respondent" calibre thinking, and at worst frankly racist.

Perhaps some reading on correlation and causation could lead you along the way to enlightenment.






Twitter: @nztechfreak
Blogs: HeadphoNZ.org


networkn
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  #801055 17-Apr-2013 15:31
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My wife, a doctor, was original declined from attending Auckland University despite having multiple academic awards including top female student in 2 subjects, dux of her school which was a high achieving private girls school in CHCH and many other such accolades due to not having enough space. One of the reasons they didn't have space for her, was that they had to fulfil scholarships given to Maori students which had a lower pass rate requirement. Admittedly they were the top performing Moari students as I understood it, but they had B+ or A- averages (it was a few years ago now exact details are a tiny bit unclear). I think from 130 students there were 11 Maori students in year 1. In year two I think they had 7 Maori Students and year 3, 4 or 5. The attrition rate (Sadly one or two of those were actually suicides), due to the pressure was terrible. Medical school is really really hard, and unless you are used to performing at a high level, you are going to struggle to keep up. b+ or a- is a reasonable grade average.


 
 
 
 


NZtechfreak
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  #801063 17-Apr-2013 15:44
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networkn: My wife, a doctor, was original declined from attending Auckland University despite having multiple academic awards including top female student in 2 subjects, dux of her school which was a high achieving private girls school in CHCH and many other such accolades due to not having enough space. One of the reasons they didn't have space for her, was that they had to fulfil scholarships given to Maori students which had a lower pass rate requirement. Admittedly they were the top performing Moari students as I understood it, but they had B+ or A- averages (it was a few years ago now exact details are a tiny bit unclear). I think from 130 students there were 11 Maori students in year 1. In year two I think they had 7 Maori Students and year 3, 4 or 5. The attrition rate (Sadly one or two of those were actually suicides), due to the pressure was terrible. Medical school is really really hard, and unless you are used to performing at a high level, you are going to struggle to keep up. b+ or a- is a reasonable grade average.


Not entirely accurate, or at least not at the time I applied in 2001.

The grade average required to make an application was the same for either scheme (B+).

The difference was that you would likely be granted an interview under the MAPAS admissions scheme with a B+ average, but you probably needed an A+ average like I had to be offered an interview under the general admissions scheme (mine was an unusual case as I was offered a choice of which scheme I was admitted on with both offering me places).

I have no problem with the existence of places for Maori and Pacific Islanders on the basis that our health system is better served by being more representative of our population. In the future when some places are reserved for men to gain entry I won't have a problem with that either.

Although it might be difficult to hear, the lack of places isn't the only reason your wife didn't get entry the first time around, it is also because they thought there were 119 better candidates, regardless of her academic accolades.

OT: What years did you Wife study? We had two suicides in the first three years of my studies also (which unfortunately is in no way indicative of us being the same class, since that is probably about average, but enough to make me curious).




Twitter: @nztechfreak
Blogs: HeadphoNZ.org


networkn
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  #801074 17-Apr-2013 15:58
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Although it might be difficult to hear, the lack of places isn't the only reason your wife didn't get entry the first time around, it is also because they thought there were 119 better candidates, regardless of her academic accolades.

OT: What years did you Wife study? We had two suicides in the first three years of my studies also (which unfortunately is in no way indicative of us being the same class, since that is probably about average, but enough to make me curious).


Eventually she did get in that first year, they made space for her, however the person who advised her she didn't get in made clear to her it was the largest single factor, other factors including she already had admission to Dunedin etc, but I do (as would she) accept the point you are making.

I was more making the point that the attrition rate was highest in those that had the lowest passing grades and those who were extremely bright but not disciplined or who didn't understand "how" to study. (Or who didn't learn VERY quickly)

I can't recall the years she studied, I can find out. 

I saw a reasonably significant number of people pushed to the brink under the pressure of studying. 


qwerty7

434 posts

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  #801075 17-Apr-2013 15:59
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NZtechfreak:
qwerty7:
NZtechfreak:
qwerty7:
NZtechfreak:
qwerty7:Also I somehow doubt the rate of 'malingering' does not differ between races


Oh really? So which races are inherently predisposed to malingering? I'd love to know. Why stop there though right? Rates of all sorts of undesirable characteristics probably vary with race eh? /s



undesirable characteristics do vary with race. 


Please elaborate, being as specific and thorough as possible as possible about this. I'm all ears.

See ethnicity of prisoners. 
http://www.corrections.govt.nz/about-us/facts_and_statistics/prisons/ps-march-2012.html


In the 2006 census of New Zealand 67.6 percent of the population identified ethnically as "New Zealand European" and 14.6 percent as Maori.

Based on those stats 67.6 % of the prison population should be nz European and 14.6 % of the prison population should be Maori. But that is not the case, 51.3% of the prison population is Maori. 


...and you are saying that this is because they are Maori, and a result of undesirable characteristics that are more prevalent in Maori?

FYI, that isn't a question, because that is exactly what you are saying. The question mark is there because you should probably think about what you are saying a bit more carefully, because what you have actually said is at best repugnant and indicative of the lowest-quality "talk-show respondent" calibre thinking, and at worst frankly racist.

Perhaps some reading on correlation and causation could lead you along the way to enlightenment.



What do you think is the reason?

MikeB4
15555 posts

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  #801089 17-Apr-2013 16:24
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qwerty7:
NZtechfreak:
qwerty7:
NZtechfreak:
qwerty7:
NZtechfreak:
qwerty7:Also I somehow doubt the rate of 'malingering' does not differ between races


Oh really? So which races are inherently predisposed to malingering? I'd love to know. Why stop there though right? Rates of all sorts of undesirable characteristics probably vary with race eh? /s



undesirable characteristics do vary with race. 


Please elaborate, being as specific and thorough as possible as possible about this. I'm all ears.

See ethnicity of prisoners. 
http://www.corrections.govt.nz/about-us/facts_and_statistics/prisons/ps-march-2012.html


In the 2006 census of New Zealand 67.6 percent of the population identified ethnically as "New Zealand European" and 14.6 percent as Maori.

Based on those stats 67.6 % of the prison population should be nz European and 14.6 % of the prison population should be Maori. But that is not the case, 51.3% of the prison population is Maori. 


...and you are saying that this is because they are Maori, and a result of undesirable characteristics that are more prevalent in Maori?

FYI, that isn't a question, because that is exactly what you are saying. The question mark is there because you should probably think about what you are saying a bit more carefully, because what you have actually said is at best repugnant and indicative of the lowest-quality "talk-show respondent" calibre thinking, and at worst frankly racist.

Perhaps some reading on correlation and causation could lead you along the way to enlightenment.



What do you think is the reason?


Socio economic. The reason why we need affirmative action.

mattwnz
16752 posts

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  #801090 17-Apr-2013 16:26
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My sister in law who is whiter than me is part maori, and got all sort of maori scholarships. Now my nephew can also get them, being part maori. Not sure how much of an advantage they are, as the people who most need them, probably never find out about them. I don't think they are a bad thing.

 
 
 
 


riahon
937 posts

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  #801092 17-Apr-2013 16:30
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qwerty7:
NZtechfreak:
qwerty7:
NZtechfreak:
qwerty7:
NZtechfreak:
qwerty7:Also I somehow doubt the rate of 'malingering' does not differ between races


Oh really? So which races are inherently predisposed to malingering? I'd love to know. Why stop there though right? Rates of all sorts of undesirable characteristics probably vary with race eh? /s



undesirable characteristics do vary with race. 


Please elaborate, being as specific and thorough as possible as possible about this. I'm all ears.

See ethnicity of prisoners. 
http://www.corrections.govt.nz/about-us/facts_and_statistics/prisons/ps-march-2012.html


In the 2006 census of New Zealand 67.6 percent of the population identified ethnically as "New Zealand European" and 14.6 percent as Maori.

Based on those stats 67.6 % of the prison population should be nz European and 14.6 % of the prison population should be Maori. But that is not the case, 51.3% of the prison population is Maori. 


...and you are saying that this is because they are Maori, and a result of undesirable characteristics that are more prevalent in Maori?

FYI, that isn't a question, because that is exactly what you are saying. The question mark is there because you should probably think about what you are saying a bit more carefully, because what you have actually said is at best repugnant and indicative of the lowest-quality "talk-show respondent" calibre thinking, and at worst frankly racist.

Perhaps some reading on correlation and causation could lead you along the way to enlightenment.



What do you think is the reason?


I think you will find may other countries that have been colonised will have similar alarming stats regarding the incarceration of indigenous people. 

qwerty7

434 posts

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  #801096 17-Apr-2013 16:44
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KiwiNZ:
qwerty7:
NZtechfreak:
qwerty7:
NZtechfreak:
qwerty7:
NZtechfreak:
qwerty7:Also I somehow doubt the rate of 'malingering' does not differ between races


Oh really? So which races are inherently predisposed to malingering? I'd love to know. Why stop there though right? Rates of all sorts of undesirable characteristics probably vary with race eh? /s



undesirable characteristics do vary with race. 


Please elaborate, being as specific and thorough as possible as possible about this. I'm all ears.

See ethnicity of prisoners. 
http://www.corrections.govt.nz/about-us/facts_and_statistics/prisons/ps-march-2012.html


In the 2006 census of New Zealand 67.6 percent of the population identified ethnically as "New Zealand European" and 14.6 percent as Maori.

Based on those stats 67.6 % of the prison population should be nz European and 14.6 % of the prison population should be Maori. But that is not the case, 51.3% of the prison population is Maori. 


...and you are saying that this is because they are Maori, and a result of undesirable characteristics that are more prevalent in Maori?

FYI, that isn't a question, because that is exactly what you are saying. The question mark is there because you should probably think about what you are saying a bit more carefully, because what you have actually said is at best repugnant and indicative of the lowest-quality "talk-show respondent" calibre thinking, and at worst frankly racist.

Perhaps some reading on correlation and causation could lead you along the way to enlightenment.



What do you think is the reason?


Socio economic. The reason why we need affirmative action.

Yes lower socio economic. But my question is when does it end? When is enough enough? Because there are other factors such as victim mentality and blame culture at play here. 

MikeB4
15555 posts

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  #801097 17-Apr-2013 16:47
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qwerty7:
KiwiNZ:
qwerty7:
NZtechfreak:
qwerty7:
NZtechfreak:
qwerty7:
NZtechfreak:
qwerty7:Also I somehow doubt the rate of 'malingering' does not differ between races


Oh really? So which races are inherently predisposed to malingering? I'd love to know. Why stop there though right? Rates of all sorts of undesirable characteristics probably vary with race eh? /s



undesirable characteristics do vary with race. 


Please elaborate, being as specific and thorough as possible as possible about this. I'm all ears.

See ethnicity of prisoners. 
http://www.corrections.govt.nz/about-us/facts_and_statistics/prisons/ps-march-2012.html


In the 2006 census of New Zealand 67.6 percent of the population identified ethnically as "New Zealand European" and 14.6 percent as Maori.

Based on those stats 67.6 % of the prison population should be nz European and 14.6 % of the prison population should be Maori. But that is not the case, 51.3% of the prison population is Maori. 


...and you are saying that this is because they are Maori, and a result of undesirable characteristics that are more prevalent in Maori?

FYI, that isn't a question, because that is exactly what you are saying. The question mark is there because you should probably think about what you are saying a bit more carefully, because what you have actually said is at best repugnant and indicative of the lowest-quality "talk-show respondent" calibre thinking, and at worst frankly racist.

Perhaps some reading on correlation and causation could lead you along the way to enlightenment.



What do you think is the reason?


Socio economic. The reason why we need affirmative action.

Yes lower socio economic. But my question is when does it end? When is enough enough? Because there are other factors such as victim mentality and blame culture at play here. 


It ends when the problem is solved

qwerty7

434 posts

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  #801121 17-Apr-2013 17:23
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KiwiNZ:
qwerty7:
KiwiNZ:
qwerty7:
NZtechfreak:
qwerty7:
NZtechfreak:
qwerty7:
NZtechfreak:
qwerty7:Also I somehow doubt the rate of 'malingering' does not differ between races


Oh really? So which races are inherently predisposed to malingering? I'd love to know. Why stop there though right? Rates of all sorts of undesirable characteristics probably vary with race eh? /s



undesirable characteristics do vary with race. 


Please elaborate, being as specific and thorough as possible as possible about this. I'm all ears.

See ethnicity of prisoners. 
http://www.corrections.govt.nz/about-us/facts_and_statistics/prisons/ps-march-2012.html


In the 2006 census of New Zealand 67.6 percent of the population identified ethnically as "New Zealand European" and 14.6 percent as Maori.

Based on those stats 67.6 % of the prison population should be nz European and 14.6 % of the prison population should be Maori. But that is not the case, 51.3% of the prison population is Maori. 


...and you are saying that this is because they are Maori, and a result of undesirable characteristics that are more prevalent in Maori?

FYI, that isn't a question, because that is exactly what you are saying. The question mark is there because you should probably think about what you are saying a bit more carefully, because what you have actually said is at best repugnant and indicative of the lowest-quality "talk-show respondent" calibre thinking, and at worst frankly racist.

Perhaps some reading on correlation and causation could lead you along the way to enlightenment.



What do you think is the reason?


Socio economic. The reason why we need affirmative action.

Yes lower socio economic. But my question is when does it end? When is enough enough? Because there are other factors such as victim mentality and blame culture at play here. 


It ends when the problem is solved

So victim mentality and blame culture should be included under emotional damages on top land claims until maori and pakeha are equally proportionately represented in socio economic statistics?

You know what. maybe your right. What a mess. There is hardly anything to celebrate about the treaty in my opinion. 
 


6FIEND
774 posts

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  #801329 18-Apr-2013 09:23
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KiwiNZ:
qwerty7:
KiwiNZ:
qwerty7:
NZtechfreak:
qwerty7:
NZtechfreak:
qwerty7:
NZtechfreak:
qwerty7:Also I somehow doubt the rate of 'malingering' does not differ between races


Oh really? So which races are inherently predisposed to malingering? I'd love to know. Why stop there though right? Rates of all sorts of undesirable characteristics probably vary with race eh? /s



undesirable characteristics do vary with race. 


Please elaborate, being as specific and thorough as possible as possible about this. I'm all ears.

See ethnicity of prisoners. 
http://www.corrections.govt.nz/about-us/facts_and_statistics/prisons/ps-march-2012.html


In the 2006 census of New Zealand 67.6 percent of the population identified ethnically as "New Zealand European" and 14.6 percent as Maori.

Based on those stats 67.6 % of the prison population should be nz European and 14.6 % of the prison population should be Maori. But that is not the case, 51.3% of the prison population is Maori. 


...and you are saying that this is because they are Maori, and a result of undesirable characteristics that are more prevalent in Maori?

FYI, that isn't a question, because that is exactly what you are saying. The question mark is there because you should probably think about what you are saying a bit more carefully, because what you have actually said is at best repugnant and indicative of the lowest-quality "talk-show respondent" calibre thinking, and at worst frankly racist.

Perhaps some reading on correlation and causation could lead you along the way to enlightenment.



What do you think is the reason?


Socio economic. The reason why we need affirmative action.

Yes lower socio economic. But my question is when does it end? When is enough enough? Because there are other factors such as victim mentality and blame culture at play here. 


It ends when the problem is solved


Solved for all people suffering from poor socio economic circumstances?   How does that have anything to do with race?

MikeB4
15555 posts

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  #801338 18-Apr-2013 09:40
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@ 6FIEND I suggest you read the thread 

6FIEND
774 posts

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  #801360 18-Apr-2013 10:02
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KiwiNZ: @ 6FIEND I suggest you read the thread 


Oh, I've read the thread.  It goes like this:
1) Should we have race-based aid?
2) Yes we should because a particular race features disproportionately in the 'bad' stats
3) Shall we examine why that is?
4) No.  But it obviously means that 'society' has treated these people unfairly.  To insinuate anything else would be skating on thin ice.
5) What about the other people who also feature in all the 'bad' stats?  Shouldn't we help them too?
6) Don't be silly.

And I've read plenty of responses from certain contributors trying to make it personal, spoiling for a fight, trolling for the faintest whiff of injustice or ignorance to pounce on.  I've read plenty of arguments along the lines of "more of group A are suffering than group B, so we must help group A exclusively!" which i find extremely distasteful.

MikeB4
15555 posts

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  #801377 18-Apr-2013 10:15
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6FIEND:
KiwiNZ: @ 6FIEND I suggest you read the thread 


Oh, I've read the thread.  It goes like this:
1) Should we have race-based aid?
2) Yes we should because a particular race features disproportionately in the 'bad' stats
3) Shall we examine why that is?
4) No.  But it obviously means that 'society' has treated these people unfairly.  To insinuate anything else would be skating on thin ice.
5) What about the other people who also feature in all the 'bad' stats?  Shouldn't we help them too?
6) Don't be silly.

And I've read plenty of responses from certain contributors trying to make it personal, spoiling for a fight, trolling for the faintest whiff of injustice or ignorance to pounce on.  I've read plenty of arguments along the lines of "more of group A are suffering than group B, so we must help group A exclusively!" which i find extremely distasteful.


Yes there are other groups that are disadvantages however the topic of this thread is ..."Do you believe in race specific grants and scholarships?"
So to provide race specific grants etc under affirmative action is a good vehicle to target assistance to those needing it from that particular group.

As for the needs of other groups eg Disabled, that is a topic for another thread.

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