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networkn
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  #801931 18-Apr-2013 22:13
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driller2000: My perspective - 43 year old male of Maori (Ngapuhi) descent with a BE (Civil) from Akl Uni and I have worked as a professional engineer for 20 years

None of this would have been possible without the scholarships I received (ie. DSIR and Rose Hellaby Trust) to support me through my degree course. This is due to fact the that I was raised by a loving mum, who happened to be on the DPB, so we had limited financial means - she did however impress upon both myself and my sister (Who subsequently gained an LLB from Akl Uni) the value of an education.

I was Dux of my school, with a solid A Bursary - so standard entry path to Akl Uni Eng School. So the affirmative action piece for me was solely financial - so I fully earned both my place in the class and my degree.

As part of the deal I had to keep passing each year for the funding to remain in place.

Total funding received over 4 years was approx $10k - and it made all the difference. For the record I have refunded this investment made in me, back into the tax system many times over - and I am happy to do so if some it provides someone else a similar opportunity to the one I was fortunate enough to receive.

Furthermore my education will also enable me to support my hapu/marae as they look at options to improve their facilities and future.

As the first in a large whanau to attend university, I hope that it has also provided an example of an education based path for my them to perhaps consider as part of their future.

Trust the above makes it clear why I support such programmes.


I applaud you coming from humble beginnings and achieving well too (I am from the same financially challenged background).

I am struggling however to see how you could not have achieved your degrees without your scholarship. Surely you would have been entitled to the same financial resources that others without the scholarship would have been able to get, or did what most of the people in my courses did, and get a part time job to help with a shortfall? 

Secondly, your comment about tax, it appears to me you are saying it was an act of benevolence you have paid the grant back in tax, but tax isn't optional, and you would have paid the same amount in tax regardless, so unless you have paid more tax than required, equal to the amount of your scholarship you haven't really "given back to allow others to participate".

Please note I am not attacking your achievements in any way, I applaud all those who overcome adversity to make something of themselves. It's excellent that you are giving back to your Marae and Whanau and THIS I consider to be a true move toward repayment of your grant/scholarship.



driller2000
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  #801946 18-Apr-2013 22:28
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Gidday - some comments re your post...

I applaud you coming from humble beginnings and achieving well too (I am from the same financially challenged background).

I am struggling however to see how you could not have achieved your degrees without your scholarship. Surely you would have been entitled to the same financial resources that others without the scholarship would have been able to get, or did what most of the people in my courses did, and get a part time job to help with a shortfall? 

perhaps - no student loans at the time - student allowances were in place but not great (but fees were tiny i guess - late 80's early 90's) - add to this the fact that the $ were also used to support the family home

Secondly, your comment about tax, it appears to me you are saying it was an act of benevolence you have paid the grant back in tax, but tax isn't optional, and you would have paid the same amount in tax regardless, so unless you have paid more tax than required, equal to the amount of your scholarship you haven't really "given back to allow others to participate".

not the intent of my comment - understand tax is compulsory : ) - more making the point that without the support i got as a student i quite possibly would not be in the profession i am or the income this provides and therefore my tax contribution would be much less (as to whether it goes back to funding similar programmes - well that depends on our "trusty" polis ...)

Please note I am not attacking your achievements in any way, I applaud all those who overcome adversity to make something of themselves. It's excellent that you are giving back to your Marae and Whanau and THIS I consider to be a true move toward repayment of your grant/scholarship.

yeah i feel a debt to both general society and the whanau given the funds were from Govt via DSIR and Private Trusts via Rose Hellaby.

So - all good and cheers for your comments :)


 
 
 
 


6FIEND
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  #802050 19-Apr-2013 08:34
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driller2000: My perspective - 43 year old male of Maori (Ngapuhi) descent with a BE (Civil) from Akl Uni and I have worked as a professional engineer for 20 years

None of this would have been possible without the scholarships I received (ie. DSIR and Rose Hellaby Trust) to support me through my degree course. This is due to fact the that I was raised by a loving mum, who happened to be on the DPB, so we had limited financial means - she did however impress upon both myself and my sister (Who subsequently gained an LLB from Akl Uni) the value of an education.

I was Dux of my school, with a solid A Bursary - so standard entry path to Akl Uni Eng School. So the affirmative action piece for me was solely financial - so I fully earned both my place in the class and my degree.

As part of the deal I had to keep passing each year for the funding to remain in place.

Total funding received over 4 years was approx $10k - and it made all the difference. For the record I have refunded this investment made in me, back into the tax system many times over - and I am happy to do so if some it provides someone else a similar opportunity to the one I was fortunate enough to receive.

Furthermore my education will also enable me to support my hapu/marae as they look at options to improve their facilities and future.

As the first in a large whanau to attend university, I hope that it has also provided an example of an education based path for my them to perhaps consider as part of their future.

Trust the above makes it clear why I support such programmes.


Firstly, congratulations on your success!

If you would indulge me asking a hypothetical question:  If every single thing about your story remained the same, except that you were a male Fijian instead of a male Maori - would you feel that it was a good thing that the opportunity this scholarship offered was denied you?

If so, then would you please help me to understand why?

NZtechfreak
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  #802051 19-Apr-2013 08:42
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JimmyH: Doubly so when taxpayers funds are involved.


Just realised I hadn't responded to this point.

You do realise that most of these scholarships are not government funded at all right? Iwi fund some, in the case of some of the medical scholarships funding is essentially crowdsourced from graduates etc.

I would still be for them even if they were all government funded, but I figured I shouldn't let that point stand completely unopposed when it is largely inaccurate. 




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driller2000
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  #802457 19-Apr-2013 18:50
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6FIEND

Firstly, congratulations on your success!

If you would indulge me asking a hypothetical question:  If every single thing about your story remained the same, except that you were a male Fijian instead of a male Maori - would you feel that it was a good thing that the opportunity this scholarship offered was denied you?

If so, then would you please help me to understand why?


if i was in fiji - yes  :p

that said there are targeted scholarships available here in nz for pi students as well

the "why" bit goes to the previous answers by others as to what affirmative action seeks to achieve eg. re lifting achievement levels, getting a more balanced outcome within key professions that better reflected the make up of the society we live within etc

as stated previously i believe such scholarships have achieved the goals they set to in my case and i would suggest in many others as well

i do however understand the challenge presented for those who are not part of the targeted groups who say "hang on - what about me - i got the grades - why cant i get scholarships too?" - the thing is, they do exist e.g.:

http://www.auckland.ac.nz/uoa/cs-search-for-scholarships-and-awards

the company i work for actually sponsors one of these - and i was involved in selecting the recipient a couple of years ago - a bright, capable, well rounded student - who happened to be a nz born sri lankan

so yeah - my 2c...again :)




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  #802465 19-Apr-2013 19:07
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6FIEND: If you would indulge me asking a hypothetical question:  If every single thing about your story remained the same, except that you were a male Fijian instead of a male Maori - would you feel that it was a good thing that the opportunity this scholarship offered was denied you?


I don't think I would. I didn't mind the scholarships that were only for female students, although I wasn't eligible *shock* *gasp* because of my gender.




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1080p
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  #802481 19-Apr-2013 19:29
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NZtechfreak:
1080p:
NZtechfreak:
1080p: We live in an equal society where every person has the same chances as another when it comes to education. This is especially true in tertiary education given that the only requirement for a student loan is that you pass...


If you believe everyone in our society has the same chances as everyone else where education is concerned I don't know what to say you to, that view is so clearly divorced from the actual reality of the world it's delusional.


Fire away. Feel free to educate me on the inequality in our education system.


The problem isn't in the education system per se, there are wider societal problems that are barriers to access before you even get that far (again that goes to the problem of your first proposition - we do not live in an equal society).


So because societal issues exist outside of the education that justifies racist scholarships within it?

 
 
 
 


1080p
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  #802491 19-Apr-2013 19:36
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giollarnat: you're also slightly beside the point if you focus on race alone, because the scholarships generally don't.
For one, ethnicity is generally indicative of a large range of social factors, e.g. socio-economic deprivation, which cannot be easily grouped otherwise. Similar to school decile for instance - there is positive discrimination in favour of low decile schools in funding because on average, they face a much harder challenge due to the socio-economic context of their students. It's no perfect form of targeting and yet in general it works out very well statistically to direct funding where its needed most and help to level the playing field. That's why a fair amount of government policy targets via ethnicity.

Also, these scholarships are in the main cultural as well as ethnic (and let's remember that ethnicity is mainly on the basis of self-identification in this country, not skin colour). If you want a Maori scholarship, you're often going to have to get support from a kaumatua and prove community involvement (ie that you make a contribution to local marae or similar). Some require you to speak the language, and many ask specifically how you're going to give back to maori community. So you have to reinforce and help to grow maori culture and community life (just as, to a lesser extent, some rotary/freemason's scholarships require you to do for the local town) as well as achieve the objectives of the scholarship, which can range from simply getting a degree ie an education (important in communities where people often have none) to doing some specific research e.g. in health. This is in part how you empower social groups to lift themselves out of historical ruts, by providing some of their members with the tools to help their community. There are other cultural aspects to do with equality in service provision E.g. scholarships for Pasifika doctors, it is well proven that for reasons ranging from basic communication to cultural practices people are on average better served by someone from their own culture. Plenty research showing that your average teacher discriminates unwittingly against brown kids (and they end up failing) simply because past experience and social mores mean they have lower expectations of them - fund a teacher training program like Te Kotahitanga including cultural elements and wham huge improvement. Etc etc

None of this is perfect but it goes a long way towards building a more level playing field in the future. And sorting out the deprived or dysfunctional sections of society saves a great amount of grief in the future - economic as well - for all of us.


Take a look here. There appear to be many available to students based on nothing more than their race.

MikeB4
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  #802503 19-Apr-2013 19:53
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1080p:
NZtechfreak:
1080p:
NZtechfreak:
1080p: We live in an equal society where every person has the same chances as another when it comes to education. This is especially true in tertiary education given that the only requirement for a student loan is that you pass...


If you believe everyone in our society has the same chances as everyone else where education is concerned I don't know what to say you to, that view is so clearly divorced from the actual reality of the world it's delusional.


Fire away. Feel free to educate me on the inequality in our education system.


The problem isn't in the education system per se, there are wider societal problems that are barriers to access before you even get that far (again that goes to the problem of your first proposition - we do not live in an equal society).


So because societal issues exist outside of the education that justifies racist scholarships within it?


point one, it is your fantasy that we live in an equal society.

point two, the inequalities most certainly proves the need and justifies targeted assistance.

1080p
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  #802504 19-Apr-2013 20:01
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KiwiNZ:
1080p:
NZtechfreak:
1080p:
NZtechfreak:
1080p: We live in an equal society where every person has the same chances as another when it comes to education. This is especially true in tertiary education given that the only requirement for a student loan is that you pass...


If you believe everyone in our society has the same chances as everyone else where education is concerned I don't know what to say you to, that view is so clearly divorced from the actual reality of the world it's delusional.


Fire away. Feel free to educate me on the inequality in our education system.


The problem isn't in the education system per se, there are wider societal problems that are barriers to access before you even get that far (again that goes to the problem of your first proposition - we do not live in an equal society).


So because societal issues exist outside of the education that justifies racist scholarships within it?


point one, it is your fantasy that we live in an equal society.

point two, the inequalities most certainly proves the need and justifies targeted assistance.


I've asked for an explanation as to why our education system is not equal/equitable and received no response. Just a simple one or two lines as to how students from certain races are discriminated against or financially less able to succeed than others. I do not delude myself that society is perfectly equal for everyone but there are no race based reasons why that is so. This is the key point defendants of this idea are missing.

My argument against your second comment is that inequality exists in every part of society regardless of your race. Why do we allow targeted assistance to a particular race when that equality exists everywhere? That is pure racism.

MikeB4
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  #802510 19-Apr-2013 20:08
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1080p:
KiwiNZ:
1080p:
NZtechfreak:
1080p:
NZtechfreak:
1080p: We live in an equal society where every person has the same chances as another when it comes to education. This is especially true in tertiary education given that the only requirement for a student loan is that you pass...


If you believe everyone in our society has the same chances as everyone else where education is concerned I don't know what to say you to, that view is so clearly divorced from the actual reality of the world it's delusional.


Fire away. Feel free to educate me on the inequality in our education system.


The problem isn't in the education system per se, there are wider societal problems that are barriers to access before you even get that far (again that goes to the problem of your first proposition - we do not live in an equal society).


So because societal issues exist outside of the education that justifies racist scholarships within it?


point one, it is your fantasy that we live in an equal society.

point two, the inequalities most certainly proves the need and justifies targeted assistance.


I've asked for an explanation as to why our education system is not equal/equitable and received no response. Just a simple one or two lines as to how students from certain races are discriminated against or financially less able to succeed than others. I do not delude myself that society is perfectly equal for everyone but there are no race based reasons why that is so. This is the key point defendants of this idea are missing.

My argument against your second comment is that inequality exists in every part of society regardless of your race. Why do we allow targeted assistance to a particular race when that equality exists everywhere? That is pure racism.


read this thread in it's entirety and without blinders and then visit the regions I mentioned in a previous post. I not wasting my time to explain further for you because I don't believe you want to know.


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  #802511 19-Apr-2013 20:09
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1080p: I've asked for an explanation as to why our education system is not equal/equitable and received no response.


If you're going to participate, how about paying attention?

That question was responded to several pages ago. As stated it wasn't so much about inequalities of opportunities within education, it was about access and how other inequalities inform that. 

You say that you don't kid yourself that society is equal, but that is what you explicitly asserted earlier in the conversation. Your assertion here that inequalities don't exist along racial lines is equally, stunningly, ignorant. Do yourself and everyone else a favour and read about the history of colonialism in NZ, and then try to keep telling yourself that nobody is disadvantaged here because of race.






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1080p
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  #802517 19-Apr-2013 20:41
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KiwiNZ:
1080p:
KiwiNZ:
1080p:
NZtechfreak:
1080p:
NZtechfreak:
1080p: We live in an equal society where every person has the same chances as another when it comes to education. This is especially true in tertiary education given that the only requirement for a student loan is that you pass...


If you believe everyone in our society has the same chances as everyone else where education is concerned I don't know what to say you to, that view is so clearly divorced from the actual reality of the world it's delusional.


Fire away. Feel free to educate me on the inequality in our education system.


The problem isn't in the education system per se, there are wider societal problems that are barriers to access before you even get that far (again that goes to the problem of your first proposition - we do not live in an equal society).


So because societal issues exist outside of the education that justifies racist scholarships within it?


point one, it is your fantasy that we live in an equal society.

point two, the inequalities most certainly proves the need and justifies targeted assistance.


I've asked for an explanation as to why our education system is not equal/equitable and received no response. Just a simple one or two lines as to how students from certain races are discriminated against or financially less able to succeed than others. I do not delude myself that society is perfectly equal for everyone but there are no race based reasons why that is so. This is the key point defendants of this idea are missing.

My argument against your second comment is that inequality exists in every part of society regardless of your race. Why do we allow targeted assistance to a particular race when that equality exists everywhere? That is pure racism.


read this thread in it's entirety and without blinders and then visit the regions I mentioned in a previous post. I not wasting my time to explain further for you because I don't believe you want to know.



Perhaps an explanation to this issue is what is required so that the others in this thread can see your point of view. You make a number of strong arguments but other than your assertion provide no further explanation/evidence as to their validity. If you see racial inequality in NZ then it is your responsibility to educate those who are 'ignorant' of it.

Explain, precisely, how inequality in New Zealand is split along divisions of race. I won't say I have all the experience in the world but from what I have observed I see inequality spread among all New Zealanders.

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  #802520 19-Apr-2013 20:47
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I think you need to do some reading about what targeted assistance is and why it is affective.

1080p
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  #802522 19-Apr-2013 20:52
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NZtechfreak:
1080p: I've asked for an explanation as to why our education system is not equal/equitable and received no response.


If you're going to participate, how about paying attention?

That question was responded to several pages ago. As stated it wasn't so much about inequalities of opportunities within education, it was about access and how other inequalities inform that. 

You say that you don't kid yourself that society is equal, but that is what you explicitly asserted earlier in the conversation. Your assertion here that inequalities don't exist along racial lines is equally, stunningly, ignorant. Do yourself and everyone else a favour and read about the history of colonialism in NZ, and then try to keep telling yourself that nobody is disadvantaged here because of race.




Right, so access to education is not equal/equitable when we compare different races in New Zealand?

My assertion that we live in an equal society does not contradict my statement that I do not delude myself that equality actually exists for everybody. In principle, our society provides equal opportunity to every person regardless of race or any other unjust form of discrimination. I can see that not every person has an equal chance from the get go but this does not make my assertion false or contradictory: it is just life. The point is that we do not (and should not) support artificial barriers to equal rights for all persons.

As it happens I am very well informed about the colonisation of New Zealand and its effect on society. What I would like is for proponents of race based financial support to coherently explain why this racism should be tolerated.

If I were to offer scholarships to Asian students because the statistics supported the fact that they achieved higher average grades than any other racial group I - rightly so - would be lynched by the rest of New Zealand for blatant racism. Why are these scholarships any different?

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