Cannabis is illegal yet we have really strong 'legal highs' ?

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#823306 22-May-2013 00:59

Your argument is flawed, you are saying that alcohol/other things are worse than cannabis therefore cannabis should be legal.

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psychrn

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#823307 22-May-2013 01:38

Regs:
qwerty7: Cannabis is illegal yet we have synthetic legal highs with who knows what in them, which are causing a whole range of problems and can be purchased anywhere. There is even a legal high called 'crack' which is a white powder and it comes with a glass pipe which you pour the powder in and smoke it like p. How does it make sense that all this cr*p is legal, yet cannabis is illegal?

are you trying to make an argument for cannabis being legal? there are a few studies now that give credibility to the supposition that regular cannabis use leads to much higher rates of depression, anxiety and even psychotic disorders.

knowing quite a few people that suffer from these conditions and seeing the way it can impact lives and families, i wouldn't be voting it legal any time soon....

mental health issues don't just affect the person who has them, they can mess up entire families both mentally and financially. if cannabis lead to the developing of these conditions, then you cannot say that a person taking it is a 'victim-less' crime.

I agree wholeheartedly with your comments Regs.
As a Mental health professional in middle management.

Over the past 6 months I have posted more and more to my Facebook profile media articles concerning problems individuals and families have experienced with using these "Legal" highs.
The stories are quite devastating to say the least. Not only ongoing mental health issues but also concomitant physical issues as well.
As was mentioned earlier in the thread the new law that comes into effect in August to prevent substances being sold that can prove that they "do not have harmful effects on humans' will be a big help I think.
Practically its going to be interesting how this one pans out.

I see lots of young people through our system with problems with cannabis/P/ and other illicit substances. Some people are just prone to the nasty effects from these drugs. The younger you are is also an issue in that young brains are even more prone to the effects and long term consequences.

Love the debate on this issue

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Mark

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#823327 22-May-2013 06:48

One of the problems I see occuring if cannabis got legalised would be all the people who whinged and moaned about it not being legal would then have nothing to whinge and moan about.

Johnk

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#823331 22-May-2013 07:09

Following comments regard my self, my family and friends , not speaking about the general population.

As someone who may have smoked cannabis for the first time at 12, and then possibly indulged in cannabis every day from the age of about 16 until the age of about 20. The bad decisions made during this possible 4 year span was what movie to watch , or what chips to have with said movie.

Now now move along to alcohol during the same years , dam did I see some dumb decisions made by myself and friends and family. Physical damage was done to people , whether it was through drunk aggression or drunken mishaps. Emotional damage was done via things said and promises broken.
Lives put at risk by idiots who drove while drunk.
Property was also damaged through people having too much to drunk and not caring.

So I guess what I'm trying to say, in my small circle of life alcohol has done a shed load more damage, some permanent with some of the drunken mistakes than cannabis has done.

I'm not at all saying cannabis is fine and should be made legal at all. It definitely is a gateway drug, I may be able to admit to that as well , but thats another story.

But if alcohol was found today I would be surprised if it wasn't classed as illegal drug.

The legal highs have found a loop hole that is being closed, I'm happy with that and wish it happened sooner.

We need to stop comparing back to cannabis and say it should be made legal. I think our mways should have a speed limit of 130kph but we all know that won't happen because it can be dangerous to drive fast (well the suddenly stopping part). Now people think that cannabis should be legal but it won't happen because it can be (studies say it is) dangerous.

Let's just all be happy that these legal highs are hopefully disappearing .

riahon

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#823343 22-May-2013 08:20

I hate how people always compare cannabis to alcohol or tobacco, if you can't put up a good argument on it's own then it should not be legalised.

Klipspringer

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#823360 22-May-2013 08:49

qwerty7: Cannabis is illegal yet we have synthetic legal highs with who knows what in them, which are causing a whole range of problems and can be purchased anywhere. There is even a legal high called 'crack' which is a white powder and it comes with a glass pipe which you pour the powder in and smoke it like p. How does it make sense that all this cr*p is legal, yet cannabis is illegal?

You start off by saying that cannabis is illegal, and rightly so. You then move on to say that the other highs are legal but yet you also admit that these other highs are causing a whole range of problems?

So legalise cannabis? Thats not an argument. So as to your own admission you actually asking to legalise something which will cause more problems.

Cannabis should remain illegal.

More should be done to control the "other highs". New Zealand is one of the only countries in the world that's dumb enough not to criminalize public intoxication. Why we don't is beyond me. One only has to watch an episode of police ten7 to recognizes the consequences of not having this law.

Quote from Wikipedia

In New Zealand, drinking in public is not a crime and instead, local governments must specify that alcohol is banned in an area before it is considered a crime to drink in that location. Being drunk in public is not specifically an offense unless the person who is intoxicated is a public nuisance, in which case they may be dealt with for 'disturbing the peace'. This will usually result in being taken home, or otherwise taken to a police cell until sober.

Now imagine adding legal cannabis to the above mix, just asking for trouble. Our youth cannot even control their drinking. Do we want to give then a license to be publicly stoned as well?

Batman

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#823431 22-May-2013 10:50

the other legal highs are only legal because the lawmakers are not world renowed chemists who can ban every single substance known to man. change things a bit and the chemical structure is different from the banned list and therefore is not banned, ie legal.

anyway ...

Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.

Jeeves

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#823443 22-May-2013 11:20

Klipspringer:
Now imagine adding legal cannabis to the above mix, just asking for trouble. Our youth cannot even control their drinking. Do we want to give then a license to be publicly stoned as well?

You must live in a sheltered world my friend. Cannabis is so unbelivably easy to acquire and prevelant in youth that I bet you will find a very large portion of drunk teens are also stoned already. Changing the law will change that very little.

I'm a fan of decriminilsation. Why? Because the current legal standing is obviously not working. We spend 10s, if not hundreds of millions a year policing and processing weed convictions. We are 8th out of a list of 163 countries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annual_cannabis_use_by_country) of cannabis use.

Time and time again it has been proven that decriminlisation or legalisation of cannabis changes usage numbers little in other countries. Even the USA, the king of the "war" on drugs, is relaxing it's stance.

The harm a criminal conviction given to someone who is otherwise a valuable and wanted contributor to society, far outweighs the harm caused by the weed itself to that individual and the economy. For this case, let it be clear I am referring to majority of users who dabble once in a while and often stop altogether as they age. For those who are habitual users, it would be much better to spend the money that would be spent on a jail cell, on education and harm reduction (Eg: vaporisers rather than joints/spots).

Having used it reasonably frequently in my younger times, I can say with absolutely certainty, that the law does nothing to stop someone who wants to try weed. It's the least of their worries. All it does is force them to keep it a secret and get advice from dodgy sorts, and resort to having to go to sketchy tinny houses on Tonar St.

Decriminalisation won't change all that is negative about weed. You will still have the gangs and the tinny houses. The reason I don't advocate for legalisation (yet) is because we need baby steps. The money saved from convicting small posessions charges can be spent fighting the bigger crooks and enhancing education.

For those who advocate keeping it illegal - please do show me how this is actually working. And I don't mean anecdotes, I mean actual evidence. I wish you all the luck.

Mark

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#823452 22-May-2013 11:30

How about we just teach kids that only feeble minded stupid people take drugs and/or get drunk ? Maybe then when they are older and have money they won't waste it and their lives ?

Klipspringer

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#823457 22-May-2013 11:38

Jeeves: You must live in a sheltered world my friend. Cannabis is so unbelivably easy to acquire and prevelant in youth that I bet you will find a very large portion of drunk teens are also stoned already. Changing the law will change that very little.

So because the system is currently failing the youth you are suggesting that it be legalised? Sorry I don’t buy into that way of thinking.

A better way would be to criminalize public intoxication. Introduce the legislation slowly. The current law against cannabis is there for a reason, it stops people acquiring weed easily. It stops many (not all) from smoking it in public, it stops many (again not all) being stoned in public, stoned on sidewalks. Legalising it will make all of these things the norm. In the same way, criminalizing public intoxication will have a positive effect on our society. It will stop many from being intoxicated in public.

I have been to many countries that practice these laws. Nowhere do you see public drinking and public disorder like you do here in NZ. People don’t do it because the law is not permitting them to do it. And there are serious consequences (yes criminal convictions) for those that do.

Jeeves: The harm a criminal conviction given to someone who is otherwise a valuable and wanted contributor to society, far outweighs the harm caused by the weed itself to that individual and the economy. For this case, let it be clear I am referring to majority of users who dabble once in a while and often stop altogether as they age. For those who are habitual users, it would be much better to spend the money that would be spent on a jail cell, on education and harm reduction (Eg: vaporisers rather than joints/spots).

The harm of a criminal conviction? Are you serious?

A criminal conviction is there for a reason.

There are many other things that are illegal in NZ and will land you a criminal conviction. Drink driving for example, and personally anybody that does so deserves a criminal conviction for stupidity.

Asmodeus

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#823458 22-May-2013 11:42

Johnk:

I'm not at all saying cannabis is fine and should be made legal at all. It definitely is a gateway drug,

There is no real evidence that cannabis is a gateway drug. It's just circumstantial. It's the easiest to get, is cheap and easily used in a lot of settings so people tend to use it first. People who try/use harder drugs would almost certainly have done so anyway.

And to the guy who said it shouldn't be compared to alcohol/tobacco, why not? It is ridiculous that alcohol is legal and so freely available, yet cannabis isn't IMO.

Look into the reasons it was banned. It is because it was a competitor to the burgeoning nylon and pharmaceutical industries. That twat Anslinger conned the US govt and the UN into banning it with false evidence of harm (reefer madness campaign).

Fact is it doesn't kill or even really hurt people in itself (whereas tobacco and alcohol do very much). The harm from cannabis comes because it is illegal and therefore unregulated and supplied by criminals.

Same thing happened with alcohol prohibition. Quality went down, crime and violence went up. They legalised it again and the criminals looked elsewhere

Beccara

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#823465 22-May-2013 11:48

It's interesting the cross over in here between the anti gay marriage and now posting similar arguments in here as anti-pot

Most problems are the result of previous solutions...

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Klipspringer

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#823470 22-May-2013 11:52

Asmodeus:
Fact is it doesn't kill or even really hurt people in itself (whereas tobacco and alcohol do very much). The harm from cannabis comes because it is illegal and therefore unregulated and supplied by criminals.

Maybe you should tell these guys because it seems you know something they dont:

The British Lung Foundation has commissioned a survey into tobacoo and cannabis usage amongst 1,045 people in Britain, and has found that smoking cannabis presents a much greater risk of lung cancer than does tobacco – 20 times more, in fact

networkn

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#823474 22-May-2013 12:00

Klipspringer:
Asmodeus:
Fact is it doesn't kill or even really hurt people in itself (whereas tobacco and alcohol do very much). The harm from cannabis comes because it is illegal and therefore unregulated and supplied by criminals.

Maybe you should tell these guys because it seems you know something they dont:

The British Lung Foundation has commissioned a survey into tobacoo and cannabis usage amongst 1,045 people in Britain, and has found that smoking cannabis presents a much greater risk of lung cancer than does tobacco – 20 times more, in fact

Honestly I think you and those who defend the illegality of cannabis (I count myself here) are wasting our time arguing the logic, the people who want it made legal aren't interested in evidence, logic or common sense, I'm gonna leave this thread. Suggest you do likewise.

Jeeves

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#823498 22-May-2013 12:44

Klipspringer:
Jeeves: You must live in a sheltered world my friend. Cannabis is so unbelivably easy to acquire and prevelant in youth that I bet you will find a very large portion of drunk teens are also stoned already. Changing the law will change that very little.

So because the system is currently failing the youth you are suggesting that it be legalised? Sorry I don’t buy into that way of thinking.

A better way would be to criminalize public intoxication. Introduce the legislation slowly. The current law against cannabis is there for a reason, it stops people acquiring weed easily. It stops many (not all) from smoking it in public, it stops many (again not all) being stoned in public, stoned on sidewalks. Legalising it will make all of these things the norm. In the same way, criminalizing public intoxication will have a positive effect on our society. It will stop many from being intoxicated in public.

It's ok you don't buy into my way of thinking. But do you believe the current system is actually working?
As it stands, it is easier for an under 18 to get weed than it is tobacco. Tobacco has strict access requirements. Weed, does not. I have first hand anecdotal evidence of this. I do not have scientific evidence because it hasn't been studied - however you can not deny that if a 15 year old walked into a dairy, he would be denied ciggerrettes. If he went down the street to the tinny house, they would gladly sell to him. I am going to assume that you likely have never smoked weed and thus been associated with it's users and systems.
I have. The law does not work.

I agree that public intoxication is a nuisance and needs to be sorted out . That absolutely applies to alcohol. I totally disagree that the laws currently stops people under the influence from being in public. Being under the influence of weed is very easy to hide. If you think the law as it stands is a deterrence to people from being stoned in public, you are far more naive than I first imagined.

I have been to many countries that practice these laws. Nowhere do you see public drinking and public disorder like you do here in NZ. People don’t do it because the law is not permitting them to do it. And there are serious consequences (yes criminal convictions) for those that do.

Sure - for alcohol.

The harm of a criminal conviction? Are you serious?

A criminal conviction is there for a reason.

Indeed it is! It's a deterrent. You have totally missed the point that I am making in that the law as it stands is not a deterrent for the vast majority of drug users.

There are many other things that are illegal in NZ and will land you a criminal conviction. Drink driving for example, and personally anybody that does so deserves a criminal conviction for stupidity.

Totally agree. I also agree with drug driving and it being penalised.
I won't say that drug taking is a victimless activity. What I am saying is the law as it stands is not working as it is intended. It's broken. It needs fixing. Making more laws and more penalties isn't the answer.

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