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jonb
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  #824019 23-May-2013 10:59
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P1n3apqlExpr3ss: Was it just me all did they make it sound like synthetics are criminalised yet are legally sold in dairies? So are synthetics currently criminalised or not?

I don't know the specifics of Dunne's bill but the obviously bad synthetic stuff that is being presented/exposed on Campbell Live a lot recently should no doubt be banned, and the whole "prove it's safe before it goes on sale" thing should go into effect ASAP

I also see it as unfair that they threw harmful synthetics in with natural cannabis



Currently, you cannot just introduce and legally sell a new medicinal drug without thorough testing of both it's positive effects and it's side effects. Applying similar restrictions to all new drugs before they can be sold legally is hard to argue with.

The decriminalising or legalising 'natural' cannabis should be treated as a separate topic.

Klipspringer
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  #824022 23-May-2013 11:14
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Jeeves:

However, I still stand by the fact that weed is so easy to get at the moment for teens, that not much will change with decrim/legalisation. The legality of it does not stop them at the moment, so changing that won't really change the current state of affairs.


Don't buy into that one sorry.
My kids know that drugs are bad and illegal. I have taught them as best as I can to stay away from them.

If they decide to go against what I have taught them well then at least there is the legal part of it which may deter them.

Taking away the legal aspect of it makes it OK.

 
 
 
 


P1n3apqlExpr3ss
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  #824039 23-May-2013 11:31
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I find it unjust that natural cannabis is less or no more harmful (would I really need to post links to studies? this should be common knowledge) than say party pills and current synthetics yet those have been openly available to purchase at some stage or currently over the last few years. If I wanted to stir fence sitters I'd throw alcohol and tobacco in there too

The gateway theory is just public misconception. Studies have shown that cannabis users have gone on to harder drugs due to social reasons/pressures; not due to the gateway theory

As for addiction, anything can be addictive, but most of the time it's in the user's brain. Whereas things like nicotine and meth are chemically addictive

I've heard of people passing quite literally grass and fly spray as weed. Would you rather your experimental teenage son/daughter smoke that? A cigarette? Or perhaps regulated and taxed cannabis from a Government approved dealer?

Disclaimer: My name is really going to work against me in this one. Pure coincidence as I have never smoked cannabis/tobacco/synthetics or done harder drugs. Haven't drunk alcohol in 3 months either

Asmodeus
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  #824041 23-May-2013 11:37
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Klipspringer:
Jeeves:

However, I still stand by the fact that weed is so easy to get at the moment for teens, that not much will change with decrim/legalisation. The legality of it does not stop them at the moment, so changing that won't really change the current state of affairs.


Don't buy into that one sorry.
My kids know that drugs are bad and illegal. I have taught them as best as I can to stay away from them.

If they decide to go against what I have taught them well then at least there is the legal part of it which may deter them.

Taking away the legal aspect of it makes it OK.


Unfortunately, your best efforts may be in vain.

It's good to teach kids that drugs are bad and illegal but when they get older they will probably realise that weed isn't actually bad and it doesn't matter that it is illegal because it is so prevalent and easy to get. I did, and my parents and teachers told me the same.

In Portugal where possession of small amounts of any drug was decriminalised in 2001, the opposite of what you have predicted happened. The same has also happened in The Netherlands and other areas with similar policies.

Read this excellent review on the particulars and effects of the Portuguese policy.

http://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/greenwald_whitepaper.pdf

A highlight is:

"Since decriminalization, lifetime prevalence rates (which measure how many people have consumed a particular drug or drugs over the course of their lifetime) in Portugal have decreased for various age groups.For students in the 7th–9th grades (13–15 years old), the rate decreased from 14.1 percent in 2001 to 10.6 percent in 2006.

For those in the 10th–12th grades (16–18 years old), the lifetime prevalence rate, which increased from 14.1 percent in 1995 to 27.6 percent in 2001, the year of decriminalization, has decreased subsequent to decriminalization, to 21.6 percent in 2006.

Prevalence rates for the 15–19 age group have actually decreased in absolute  terms since decriminalization. For the same groups, prevalence rates for psychoactive substances have also decreased subsequent to decriminalization. 

In fact, for those two critical groups of youth (13–15 years and 16–18 years), prevalence rates have declined for virtually every substance since decriminalization".

Jeeves
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  #824129 23-May-2013 13:44
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Klipspringer:
Jeeves:

However, I still stand by the fact that weed is so easy to get at the moment for teens, that not much will change with decrim/legalisation. The legality of it does not stop them at the moment, so changing that won't really change the current state of affairs.


Don't buy into that one sorry.
My kids know that drugs are bad and illegal. I have taught them as best as I can to stay away from them.

If they decide to go against what I have taught them well then at least there is the legal part of it which may deter them.

Taking away the legal aspect of it makes it OK.


The things is, there are a myriad of things which are legal, but of which sectors of society consider "bad". Pre-material sex, prostitution, pornography, cats (Hello Mr Morgan).
You have absolutely every right to still teach them that drugs are bad - good on you. It will be the education you give them, rather than the legality of it, which will mostly influence their decision to partake in it or not. Especially in a social enviroment which for all intetnts and purposes, is safe from the law (A small party amongst close friends in a house where everyone is having a puff, for instance).

Klipspringer
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  #824130 23-May-2013 13:50
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Jeeves:
The things is, there are a myriad of things which are legal, but of which sectors of society consider "bad". Pre-material sex, prostitution, pornography, cats (Hello Mr Morgan).
You have absolutely every right to still teach them that drugs are bad - good on you. It will be the education you give them, rather than the legality of it, which will mostly influence their decision to partake in it or not. Especially in a social enviroment which for all intetnts and purposes, is safe from the law (A small party amongst close friends in a house where everyone is having a puff, for instance).


100% agree.

But will legalizing it increase its use? I think we will all agree that the answer is YES.

That said. Do we really want a bigger part of our society on pot?

Jeeves
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  #824137 23-May-2013 14:14
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Klipspringer:
Jeeves:
The things is, there are a myriad of things which are legal, but of which sectors of society consider "bad". Pre-material sex, prostitution, pornography, cats (Hello Mr Morgan).
You have absolutely every right to still teach them that drugs are bad - good on you. It will be the education you give them, rather than the legality of it, which will mostly influence their decision to partake in it or not. Especially in a social enviroment which for all intetnts and purposes, is safe from the law (A small party amongst close friends in a house where everyone is having a puff, for instance).


100% agree.

But will legalizing it increase its use? I think we will all agree that the answer is YES.

That said. Do we really want a bigger part of our society on pot?


I'm not so sure. If it does, it won't be very much. Once again, I firmly believe that the number of people who do not touch it solely on the fact that it is illegal and for no other reason, is an incredibly small one.

Now let's look at the benefits of legalisation:
- Less gang influence
- Tax
- More age restrictions/controls
- Less Police resources used
- Less court resources used
- Less prison resources used
- More education
- Unlikely, but not impossible - more tourism.

 
 
 
 


SepticSceptic
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  #824142 23-May-2013 14:23
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Klipspringer: But will legalizing it increase its use? I think we will all agree that the answer is YES.

That said. Do we really want a bigger part of our society on pot?


You cannot make assumptions for me to agree that this will be the case. Nevertheless, rather have more pot-heads and fewer agro boozers




My thoughts are no longer my own and is probably representative of our media-controlled government


Klipspringer
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  #824156 23-May-2013 14:51
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Jeeves:
I'm not so sure. If it does, it won't be very much.


I disagree. Lets allow smoking in the workplace, parks, pubs, restaurants and shopping centers. I'm pretty sure it will encourage more people to smoke. In the same way legalising marajuana will encourage more people to smoke pot.

While on the topic of smoking. Its going to be hard pushing for legislation of marajuana if we are currently as a country trying to stop/ban people from smoking.

Jeeves:

Now let's look at the benefits of legalisation:
- Less gang influence
- Tax
- More age restrictions/controls
- Less Police resources used
- Less court resources used
- Less prison resources used
- More education
- Unlikely, but not impossible - more tourism.


- Less gang influence: I highly doubt it. In fact it may increase because the gangs would now have to compete against retailers/goverment, increasing crime.

- Tax: Thats similar to tax on tobacco. Government could do more without changing any laws and promote tobacco if it was interested in promoting substance abuse.

- More age restrictions/controls: You got to be kidding? Legalizing the drug will make it more easily available to the young that cannot buy it legally. hmmm whats this thing that dad left lying around in the house. let me try it.

- Less Police resources used: Probably. But how many convictions start off as an innocent pot bust and result in a hard core criminal bust. Its a no brainier that many criminals smoke pot. (I wonder why?)

- Less court resources used: Maybe. But as per above.

- Less prison resources used: Doubt it. Nobody is sitting in prison for smoking pot. Selling it maybe. But then again they will be selling the other stuff too. (But we can legalize all of that too)

- More education: How so?

- Unlikely, but not impossible - more tourism: Doubt it.






Klipspringer
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  #824158 23-May-2013 14:56
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SepticSceptic:
Klipspringer: But will legalizing it increase its use? I think we will all agree that the answer is YES.

That said. Do we really want a bigger part of our society on pot?


You cannot make assumptions for me to agree that this will be the case. Nevertheless, rather have more pot-heads and fewer agro boozers


What has ever been legalized and resulted in less use?
Can't think of a single thing

JimmyH
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  #824364 23-May-2013 20:00
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Klipspringer:

What has ever been legalized and resulted in less use?
Can't think of a single thing



I can. Drugs, funnily enough. Look at the data from Portugal and the Netherlands.

JimmyH
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  #824375 23-May-2013 20:10
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Klipspringer:

Don't buy into that one sorry.
My kids know that drugs are bad and illegal. I have taught them as best as I can to stay away from them.

If they decide to go against what I have taught them well then at least there is the legal part of it which may deter them.

Taking away the legal aspect of it makes it OK.


Actually "Drugs" aren't illegal. Only illegal drugs are illegal, legal drugs aren't. It's all down to the whim and caprice of the lawmakers. If your kids think all drugs are illegal then they better not go near a pharmacy, or a coffee shop for that matter.

Some legal drugs include Opiates (eg the IV morphine they gave me in hospital), Salicylic acid (asprin), ethanol (yay craft beers!), nicotine and caffeine.

Illegal drugs include cannabis and LSD. What makes them illegal isn't that they are "nasty evil drugs", it's they happen to be the ones lawmakers listed on a schedule. And, over time, some get added and some potentially get taken off.

I don't care about cannabis and nicotine personally - although I don't care two hoots if other adults like them. But I absolutely want opiates available from doctors. I will scream blue bloody murder and reluctantly embark on criminal drug production and purchasing if some clot bans alcohol and I can't get a beer legally, and the health gauleiters  can take my last cup of coffee (caffeine) when they prise it from my cold dead hand.

Asmodeus
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  #824479 23-May-2013 23:13
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Klipspringer:
But will legalizing it increase its use? I think we will all agree that the answer is YES.


No lol. did you read what I posted? everywhere the laws have been relaxed, use has gone down.

freitasm
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  #824482 23-May-2013 23:20
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Klipspringer:
SepticSceptic:
Klipspringer: But will legalizing it increase its use? I think we will all agree that the answer is YES.

That said. Do we really want a bigger part of our society on pot?


You cannot make assumptions for me to agree that this will be the case. Nevertheless, rather have more pot-heads and fewer agro boozers


What has ever been legalized and resulted in less use?
Can't think of a single thing


You're conveniently ignoring the post above yours showing the experience in a country where it was legalized..




 

 

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Klipspringer
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  #825827 27-May-2013 08:35
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freitasm:

You're conveniently ignoring the post above yours showing the experience in a country where it was legalized..


Not ignoring in. In fact I agree there are some valid arguments to legalize it.

However from whatever side of the argument I wish to argue I will probably be able to pull some useless statistics/opinions to backup that argument. Hence Im not interested in trying to backup my opinions or counter somebody else s claims.

As for the claim that legalizing marijuana decreases usage, well a simple google search about the dangers of marijuana returns some interesting articles.

This article for instance:
Marijuana: The myths are killing us.

Over the past decade, drug policy in some foreign countries, particularly those in Europe, has gone through some dramatic changes toward greater liberalization with failed results. Consider the experience of the Netherlands, where the government reconsidered its legalization measures in light of that country's experience.After marijuana use became legal, consumption nearly tripled among 18- to 20-year-olds. As awareness of the harm of marijuana grew, the number of cannabis coffeehouses in the Netherlands decreased 36 percent in six years.

Almost all Dutch towns have a cannabis policy, and 73 percent of them have a no-tolerance policy toward the coffeehouses.


Why the decrease in coffee houses if there is nothing wrong with it?

At the end of the day, smoking canabis takes a person away from their natural state of mind. Our sanity. Agreed? (I have smoked it and can speak from experience). Yes it gave me a nice high, a feeling of carelessness. In fact I wonder how my kids would have turned out if I smoked it every day.

Sure alcohol does the same thing, and smoking tobacco is probably debatable.

So the question. Do we really want more people "outside their sanity" legally outside our schools, playgrounds, looking after kids etc?

Its a no brainier for me. Keep it illegal.

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