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Batman
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  #824808 24-May-2013 15:16
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NonprayingMantis:
joker97: I don't have to prove anything. The burden of proof lies on the person making a claim.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_burden_of_proof

umm, nobody asked you to prove anything.  I asked you why you thought my statement was narrowminded.


I just thought it was a da ring generalisation.

People do crazy stuff in the name of religion. There have been religious leaders and people who have committed heinous crimes. But there are non religious people who are crazy or commit heinous crimes.

I'm pretty sure there are religious people who are neither crazy nor bad. The pope. Mother Theresa. Other non famous people.





Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.


mckenndk
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#824809 24-May-2013 15:21
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freitasm:
KiwiNZ: The motives of these people will become known in the weeks or months to come. Waiting for that is better than jumping to conclusions based on press reports.


And biased press reports at best...



Don't let the truth get in the way of a good story, can't sell a news paper that way or sell your story.





 
 
 
 


BurningBeard
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  #824811 24-May-2013 15:23
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joker97: 
I'm pretty sure there are religious people who are neither crazy nor bad. The pope. Mother Theresa..


Her cult of suffering falls into the "bad" category for sure.




My very metal Doctor Who theme

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  #824819 24-May-2013 15:34
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I bet you wouldn't say that if your drunk parents who fed you vodka to keep you quiet and then beat you to a pulp and then left you and your nine siblings freezing and starving in the streets and a lady who gave up her life just so you got food clothes and someone to hold you




Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.


NonprayingMantis
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  #824822 24-May-2013 15:37
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KiwiNZ:
NonprayingMantis:
joker97: Also don't forget "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" (unknown)

I guess in making that statement you don't consider it extraordinary on the first place so be it if that's the case


I dont think it's particularly extraordinary to say that the kind of people who believe the praying will heal their sick son and so refuse modern medicine are crazy (crazy AND dangerous).  or that people who believe that if they martyr themselves for their god they will receive 40+ virgins in heaven are crazy (also dangerous), or people who believe joseph smith read the book of mormon from the inside of a hat from some gold plates are crazy, or that people who believe that a cosmic jewish zombie who was his own father needs you to eat his own flesh in order for him to forgive because a rib woman was persuaded by a talking snake to eat some fruit and that caused you to be sinful are crazy.


I mean, if you believe in one particular version of a god that generally means you disbelieve in all the other thousands of different versions of god or gods our there.
That means you probably think that all the other people who believe in the 'wrong' gods are crazy (they must be to believe in such an obviously false god).

You are an atheist about all those other gods.  So am I.  I just go one god further than you.

furthermore,  I know quite a few people who have 'found' religion (different religions).  once that happened,  they went crazy believing in all sorts of fanciful nonsense like prayer, miracles, heaven etc.





Tolerance is a virtue, lack of it results in what is happening on a regular cycle. People are free to believe what they will without insult.


absolutely right.
people are free to believe what they want,  and I am free to believe they are crazy if they beleive crazy things.

NonprayingMantis
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  #824823 24-May-2013 15:40
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joker97:
NonprayingMantis:
joker97: I don't have to prove anything. The burden of proof lies on the person making a claim.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_burden_of_proof

umm, nobody asked you to prove anything.  I asked you why you thought my statement was narrowminded.


I just thought it was a da ring generalisation.

People do crazy stuff in the name of religion. There have been religious leaders and people who have committed heinous crimes. But there are non religious people who are crazy or commit heinous crimes.

I'm pretty sure there are religious people who are neither crazy nor bad. The pope. Mother Theresa. Other non famous people.



crazy doesn't necessarily mean bad.   People can be totally crazy and still do good things.
My generalisation is that if people believe crazy things, they are crazy. Every religion I have heard of has crazy things (talking snakes, gods who are their own father, etc) and therefore you have to be crazy to buy into them.  Ergo,  crazy people get religion.


Butif you want to talk about people doing bad things,  that is different.
there is a famous quote that goes something like:

"good people will do good things and bad people will do bad things.
But for good people to do bad things.... that takes religion."



MikeB4
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  #824832 24-May-2013 15:52
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NonprayingMantis:
joker97:
NonprayingMantis:
joker97: I don't have to prove anything. The burden of proof lies on the person making a claim.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_burden_of_proof

umm, nobody asked you to prove anything.  I asked you why you thought my statement was narrowminded.


I just thought it was a da ring generalisation.

People do crazy stuff in the name of religion. There have been religious leaders and people who have committed heinous crimes. But there are non religious people who are crazy or commit heinous crimes.

I'm pretty sure there are religious people who are neither crazy nor bad. The pope. Mother Theresa. Other non famous people.



crazy doesn't necessarily mean bad.   People can be totally crazy and still do good things.
My generalisation is that if people believe crazy things, they are crazy. Every religion I have heard of has crazy things (talking snakes, gods who are their own father, etc) and therefore you have to be crazy to buy into them.  Ergo,  crazy people get religion.


Butif you want to talk about people doing bad things,  that is different.
there is a famous quote that goes something like:

"good people will do good things and bad people will do bad things.
But for good people to do bad things.... that takes religion."




Because someone does not believe as you do does not make them crazy that is intolerance and offensive.

 
 
 
 


NonprayingMantis
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  #824833 24-May-2013 15:57
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KiwiNZ:
NonprayingMantis:
joker97:
NonprayingMantis:
joker97: I don't have to prove anything. The burden of proof lies on the person making a claim.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_burden_of_proof

umm, nobody asked you to prove anything.  I asked you why you thought my statement was narrowminded.


I just thought it was a da ring generalisation.

People do crazy stuff in the name of religion. There have been religious leaders and people who have committed heinous crimes. But there are non religious people who are crazy or commit heinous crimes.

I'm pretty sure there are religious people who are neither crazy nor bad. The pope. Mother Theresa. Other non famous people.



crazy doesn't necessarily mean bad.   People can be totally crazy and still do good things.
My generalisation is that if people believe crazy things, they are crazy. Every religion I have heard of has crazy things (talking snakes, gods who are their own father, etc) and therefore you have to be crazy to buy into them.  Ergo,  crazy people get religion.


Butif you want to talk about people doing bad things,  that is different.
there is a famous quote that goes something like:

"good people will do good things and bad people will do bad things.
But for good people to do bad things.... that takes religion."




Because someone does not believe as you do does not make them crazy that is intolerance and offensive.


it's not that they don't believe as I do.  It is that they believe crazy things.

Is it intolerant and offensive if I think the following is true?

Grown adults who believe in Santa = crazy
Grown adults who beleive the world is flat = crazy

I dont think so.

This is no different.

grown adults who beleive the world is 6000 years old = crazy
grown adults who believe their child's cancer is best cured by prayer rather than modern medicine = crazy

MikeB4
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  #824834 24-May-2013 15:59
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NonprayingMantis:
KiwiNZ:
NonprayingMantis:
joker97:
NonprayingMantis:
joker97: I don't have to prove anything. The burden of proof lies on the person making a claim.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_burden_of_proof

umm, nobody asked you to prove anything.  I asked you why you thought my statement was narrowminded.


I just thought it was a da ring generalisation.

People do crazy stuff in the name of religion. There have been religious leaders and people who have committed heinous crimes. But there are non religious people who are crazy or commit heinous crimes.

I'm pretty sure there are religious people who are neither crazy nor bad. The pope. Mother Theresa. Other non famous people.



crazy doesn't necessarily mean bad.   People can be totally crazy and still do good things.
My generalisation is that if people believe crazy things, they are crazy. Every religion I have heard of has crazy things (talking snakes, gods who are their own father, etc) and therefore you have to be crazy to buy into them.  Ergo,  crazy people get religion.


Butif you want to talk about people doing bad things,  that is different.
there is a famous quote that goes something like:

"good people will do good things and bad people will do bad things.
But for good people to do bad things.... that takes religion."




Because someone does not believe as you do does not make them crazy that is intolerance and offensive.


it's not that they don't believe as I do.  It is that they believe crazy things.

Is it intolerant and offensive if I thing that:

Grown adults who believe in Santa = crazy
Grown adults who beleive the world is flat = crazy

This is no different.

grown adults who beleive the world is 6000 years old = crazy
grown adults who believe their child's cancer is best cured by prayer rather than modern medicine = crazy


quoting extremes does you no favours.

I am not a religious person however I am mature enough to allow those who are to hold their beliefs without ridicule and insult.

Mark

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  #824835 24-May-2013 16:04
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joker97: I bet you wouldn't say that if your drunk parents who fed you vodka to keep you quiet and then beat you to a pulp and then left you and your nine siblings freezing and starving in the streets and a lady who gave up her life just so you got food clothes and someone to hold you


Any chance you could edit that to make it readable ?  Needs some punctuation and more words, and also some info on who the woman is, is she good, bad ?  Why did she die to give you edible clothes?

NonprayingMantis
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  #824839 24-May-2013 16:09
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KiwiNZ:
NonprayingMantis: 

Is it intolerant and offensive if I thing that:

Grown adults who believe in Santa = crazy
Grown adults who beleive the world is flat = crazy

This is no different.

grown adults who beleive the world is 6000 years old = crazy
grown adults who believe their child's cancer is best cured by prayer rather than modern medicine = crazy


quoting extremes does you no favours.

I am not a religious person however I am mature enough to allow those who are to hold their beliefs without ridicule and insult.


what do you mean by extremes? I'm referring (in this case) to people who beleive in the bible.
those are biblically accurate things.
the bible literally says whatever you ask for in prayer you shall receive.  

Of course, if someone doesn't actually believe that the bible is true and therefore don't believe in the crazy things within,  then they aren't really a christian (pretty much by definition) so therefore might not be crazy.


ETA:  ok, here is a less 'extreme' one.  If you believe that a wafer *literally* turns into the flesh of jesus when you eat it as part of the sacrement this is crazy.  Transubstantiation is a fundamental piece of catholic doctrine.  if you are catholic, then this is what you believe really truly happens. 
it is also, quite obviously, crazy.

MikeB4
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  #824843 24-May-2013 16:14
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NonprayingMantis:
KiwiNZ:
NonprayingMantis: 

Is it intolerant and offensive if I thing that:

Grown adults who believe in Santa = crazy
Grown adults who beleive the world is flat = crazy

This is no different.

grown adults who beleive the world is 6000 years old = crazy
grown adults who believe their child's cancer is best cured by prayer rather than modern medicine = crazy


quoting extremes does you no favours.

I am not a religious person however I am mature enough to allow those who are to hold their beliefs without ridicule and insult.


what do you mean by extremes? I'm referring (in this case) to people who beleive in the bible.
those are biblically accurate things.
the bible literally says whatever you ask for in prayer you shall receive.  

Of course, if someone doesn't actually believe that the bible is true and therefore don't believe in the crazy things within,  then they aren't really a christian (pretty much by definition) so therefore might not be crazy.


You have just demonstrated  that religious intolerance is a result of a lack of knowledge of the subject. Which is one of the possible causes of the subject

NonprayingMantis
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  #824847 24-May-2013 16:17
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KiwiNZ:
NonprayingMantis:
KiwiNZ:
NonprayingMantis: 

Is it intolerant and offensive if I thing that:

Grown adults who believe in Santa = crazy
Grown adults who beleive the world is flat = crazy

This is no different.

grown adults who beleive the world is 6000 years old = crazy
grown adults who believe their child's cancer is best cured by prayer rather than modern medicine = crazy


quoting extremes does you no favours.

I am not a religious person however I am mature enough to allow those who are to hold their beliefs without ridicule and insult.


what do you mean by extremes? I'm referring (in this case) to people who beleive in the bible.
those are biblically accurate things.
the bible literally says whatever you ask for in prayer you shall receive.  

Of course, if someone doesn't actually believe that the bible is true and therefore don't believe in the crazy things within,  then they aren't really a christian (pretty much by definition) so therefore might not be crazy.


You have just demonstrated  that religious intolerance is a result of a lack of knowledge of the subject.


are you saying that the bible doesn't say this?  because it does.  very clearly.
or are you saying that you can be a christian even if you don't believe the bible is true?

MikeB4
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  #824850 24-May-2013 16:22
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NonprayingMantis:
KiwiNZ:
NonprayingMantis:
KiwiNZ:
NonprayingMantis: 

Is it intolerant and offensive if I thing that:

Grown adults who believe in Santa = crazy
Grown adults who beleive the world is flat = crazy

This is no different.

grown adults who beleive the world is 6000 years old = crazy
grown adults who believe their child's cancer is best cured by prayer rather than modern medicine = crazy


quoting extremes does you no favours.

I am not a religious person however I am mature enough to allow those who are to hold their beliefs without ridicule and insult.


what do you mean by extremes? I'm referring (in this case) to people who beleive in the bible.
those are biblically accurate things.
the bible literally says whatever you ask for in prayer you shall receive.  

Of course, if someone doesn't actually believe that the bible is true and therefore don't believe in the crazy things within,  then they aren't really a christian (pretty much by definition) so therefore might not be crazy.


You have just demonstrated  that religious intolerance is a result of a lack of knowledge of the subject.


are you saying that the bible doesn't say this?  because it does.  very clearly.
or are you saying that you can be a christian even if you don't believe the bible is true?


I am not about to give you a theological lesson, but the Bible is a series of Allegories.

Mark

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  #824854 24-May-2013 16:28
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NonprayingMantis: 

are you saying that the bible doesn't say this?  because it does.  very clearly.
or are you saying that you can be a christian even if you don't believe the bible is true?


I'd give up if I were you, god botherers rarely accept that they've wasted decades of their life based on what could be a work of fiction.



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