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turnin
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  #829451 1-Jun-2013 22:44
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Hobchild: Normally I love a good theological debate but I've only just stumbled onto this one and it's late so all I'm going to say on the matter is this.

Believe what you like but for humanity's sake stop killing people over it.


Agreed,
It concerns me that there was very little consideration that this was performed by just 2 individuals, yet a whole religion gets nailed for it by what seems to be a quite large percentage of the population. Seldom do you see a crime committed where the criminal hangs around to deliver his reasoning for the crime, the media addressed this as a "rant" I think his words were something along the lines of "this happens every day in our country", isn't that a massive clue as to what drives these extremists. His actions were a reaction to the atrocities of war,  That seems to have escaped much analysis. 
Complex situations deserve complex analysis yet the answers provided by British politicians and strategists were all about being "more vigilant". We wonder why these extremists exist without thinking much about what what happens to them on a daily basis as a result of war action. 
If society has a strength it's well informed public debate, not breeding polarised haters ready to commit further wars on largely innocent populations on the basis of religion, race or any other divisive factor. It's becoming ingrained on both sides, not a good recipe. Make no mistake I think what happened was absolutely terrible but we seldom consider the result of our war efforts on huge numbers of innocent people/collateral damage. Being "more vigilant" and the style of the media reaction seems to just invoke more fear in the populations, surely that isn't the goal.

BurningBeard
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  #829468 1-Jun-2013 23:13
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turnin: Seldom do you see a crime committed where the criminal hangs around to deliver his reasoning for the crime, the media addressed this as a "rant" I think his words were something along the lines of "this happens every day in our country", isn't that a massive clue as to what drives these extremists. His actions were a reaction to the atrocities of war,  That seems to have escaped much analysis.


And as I said earlier, "the media" left out the Koran quotes, which he uses to justify the murder.

I re-quote him (the killer) again...
"We are forced by the Koran, in Sura At-Tawba, through many ayah throughout the Koran, that we must fight them as they fight us."

The killing is religiously justified by this guy.




My very metal Doctor Who theme

 
 
 
 


TheUngeek
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  #829469 1-Jun-2013 23:15
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The atrocities of war are misplaced. Who's killing and persecuting the civilians in the areas? Certainly no one wearing a military uniform


turnin
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  #829535 2-Jun-2013 10:43
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TheUngeek: The atrocities of war are misplaced. Who's killing and persecuting the civilians in the areas? Certainly no one wearing a military uniform



OK, What makes you so certainly sure of that ?
 
I don't know what the pilots of the now infamous wikileaks helicopter footage were wearing that day, but I do know the whole world witnessed innocent civilians being killed. you might recall the comment "well, ya shouldn't have brought ya kids to a war zone buddy". You might recall there was a bit of a stink about that, Now if you recall it only came to light because Reuters wanted to know where their reporters were and Manning and Assange are as good as dead for exposing the cover up ,so potentially that's more than a one off incident. In fact look, just last month alone, 883 civilians, gone. Of course we don't hear of the social issues, the injuries, the heart break or the constant fear.  http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/recent/
  
My post was supposed to get you to have a brief moment of empathy for what it must be like to live with all that going on around you, never mind the God knows (pardon the religious quotes) how many years of trade sanctions prior. Remembering that the VAST majority of people don't make any political decisions of any kind, if it was you that had grown up with all that going on around you....don't you think it's possible you might have different thoughts and behaviours ? 
I see that 2 men did this as an accumulative result of the atrocities of war. He also said something along the lines of "sorry your women have to see this, get out of our country, you do this to us every day, leave us alone". 
When that war started, that guy would have been perhaps 5 years old. Now when big tough yee har soldiers come back from war they frequently suffer from all sorts of psychological disorders for many many years, imagine for a split second what it's like for a little kid who can't leave! Imagine what happens to that kid as he grows up.  Perhaps he does struggle to separate religion from war, can you really blame him, but in this case, whilst I agree he quotes religion, I don't think his motivation is his religion, it's revenge for years upon years of war. However you might recall the western world started calling this "the holy war" in 1992 and since our media tends to ignore their plight totally but goes spastic when one of our own dies in a "sickening and cowardly attack on HOME soil". Do you not see just a very small irony in that ?
Surely, even in the complex battle this is, a little empathy would go a hell of a lot further than pointing fingers at religions. 
Perhaps it's my short sightedness in hoping that the majority of people in the world could see past that. 
I'll say no more on this, but it disappoints me to think as an educated and evolved world we can't see that to choose sides and murder each other is futile and inhumane.

TheUngeek
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  #829542 2-Jun-2013 10:55
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You have fallen for the con that is propaganda. How many of those civilians were in fact actual civilians. Then, how many of the real number were killed by what side? After all which side is it that kills teachers, women not covering faces, those that speak out and members of differnt tribes/sects?

There is no denying cock ups happen. But to say the western military forces are routinely murdering civilians as part of normal operations is utterly ludicrous and disgusts me.

Also what war are you referring to that this guy saw that English soldiers were in? These guys were Nigerian after all and converted to radical Islam.

Please do not misinterpret me as being supportive of war. However there are times when military action is needed.

freitasm
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  #829556 2-Jun-2013 11:27
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I don't see these people complaining about Taleban killing people, or killing teachers or girls that go to school.


You don't see this people asking for rights in Syria.

These people are being misled by folks who want to grab everything for themselves and brainwashing them to believe the Western powers are against them.

Sheep following wolves.





 

 

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BurningBeard
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  #829560 2-Jun-2013 11:36
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turnin: My post was supposed to get you to have a brief moment of empathy for what it must be like to live with all that going on around you, never mind the God knows (pardon the religious quotes) how many years of trade sanctions prior. Remembering that the VAST majority of people don't make any political decisions of any kind, if it was you that had grown up with all that going on around you....don't you think it's possible you might have different thoughts and behaviours ? 
I see that 2 men did this as an accumulative result of the atrocities of war. He also said something along the lines of "sorry your women have to see this, get out of our country, you do this to us every day, leave us alone". 


I think most of us get that, but...
Did the guy who decided to get choppy with his machete actually even come from or live in those places? He sounded just a British as the next geezer innit!? I could be wrong, as I don't know his background.
His reference to "my people" - is a religious reference.  As if Islam is a race, or something.

War is horrible, civilians die, it sucks.
But so does a religion that makes a virtue out of blowing yourself up and taking as many people with you as possible. It takes religion to cause someone to do that.

It's sad because now all the white-pride anti-immigration nutters are going to jump all over this; there'll be clashes in the streets and Muslims will say they're being victimised amidst cries of "Islamaphobia."




My very metal Doctor Who theme

 
 
 
 


BurningBeard
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  #829577 2-Jun-2013 11:49
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No surprise, Uncle Pat is not amused...





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MikeB4
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  #829654 2-Jun-2013 14:45
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Haters will always hate, criminals will always have a justification, despots will always have their scapegoats. The ignorant will see right on their side, the crowd will always follow the crowd, but most will never accept that wrong maybe on their side and that others are always to blame.

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