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687 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 849584 5-Jul-2013 11:02
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So long as Andrew Little NEVER becomes PM, the labour party can do what it likes.

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  Reply # 849596 5-Jul-2013 11:07
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1080p:
KiwiNZ:
scuwp:
KiwiNZ:
1080p: "The rules would also require a list that had a mix of ethnicity, gender, geographical spread, sexual orientation and disability representation."

I guess they don't really want to win an election this time around either.


You have described the ideal representation mix for Parliament.  


Agree, but if that was their only qualification for the job then lord help us.


95% of the incumbents are not qualified now, so it may well be an improvement  


You have no idea what you're talking about if you seriously think this is the case. When was the last time you spoke with an MP?


We are a rude individual aren't we. Manners cost so little.
To answer your question, constantly before I retired.

My comment if you decided to think outside your square  you would have realised it was errr ummm "tongue in check"




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 It's our only home, lets clean it up then...

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 


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  Reply # 849605 5-Jul-2013 11:17
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sen8or: So long as Andrew Little NEVER becomes PM, the labour party can do what it likes.


Unfortunately it's looking like that could happen. They will need to roll David Shearer about a year before next year's election and they are lacking potential replacements. I personally think that Grant Robertson is unlikely because deputies of failed leaders don't tend to become leaders themselves and David Cunliffe is too tarnished by his previous failed coup, so that really just leaves David Parker and Andrew Little.

Bring on the endless waterfront strikes!

606 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 849606 5-Jul-2013 11:17
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KiwiNZ:
"The establishment of Maori electorates came about in 1867 during the term of the 4th Parliament with the Maori Representation Act, drafted by Napier MP Donald McLean.[2] Parliament passed the Act only after lengthy debate. Many conservative MPs, most of whom considered Maori "unfit" to participate in government, opposed Maori representation in Parliament, while some MPs from the other end of the spectrum (such as James FitzGerald, who had proposed allocating a third of Parliament to Maori) regarded the concessions given to Maori as insufficient. In the end the setting up of Maori electorates separate from existing electorates assuaged conservative opposition to the bill – conservatives had previously feared that Maori would gain the right to vote in general electorates, thereby forcing all MPs (rather than just four Maori MPs) to take notice of Maori opinion.
Before this law came into effect, no direct prohibition on Maori voting existed, but other indirect prohibitions made it extremely difficult for Maori to exercise their theoretical electoral rights. The most significant problem involved the property qualification – to vote, one needed to possess a certain value of land. Maori owned a great deal of land, but they held it in common, not under individual title, and under the law, only land held under individual title could count towards the property qualification. Donald McLean explicitly intended his bill as a temporary measure, giving specific representation to Maori until they adopted European customs of land ownership. However, the Maori electorates lasted far longer than the intended five years, and remain in place today, despite the property qualification for voting being removed in 1879." 


As such, all impediments (both direct & indirect, both real & perceived) to Maori exercising their electoral rights in general electorates were removed in 1879.

Accordingly, NZ is only 134yrs overdue to remove institutional racism from it's electoral law.

Yet somehow I'm certain that I will be labelled either 'racist' or failing that, 'ignorant' for pointing that out.

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  Reply # 849607 5-Jul-2013 11:19
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alasta:
sen8or: So long as Andrew Little NEVER becomes PM, the labour party can do what it likes.


Unfortunately it's looking like that could happen. They will need to roll David Shearer about a year before next year's election and they are lacking potential replacements. I personally think that Grant Robertson is unlikely because deputies of failed leaders don't tend to become leaders themselves and David Cunliffe is too tarnished by his previous failed coup, so that really just leaves David Parker and Andrew Little.

Bring on the endless waterfront strikes!


They should look to the future and appoint Jacinda Ardern. 




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 It's our only home, lets clean it up then...

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 


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  Reply # 849608 5-Jul-2013 11:21
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6FIEND:
KiwiNZ:
"The establishment of Maori electorates came about in 1867 during the term of the 4th Parliament with the Maori Representation Act, drafted by Napier MP Donald McLean.[2] Parliament passed the Act only after lengthy debate. Many conservative MPs, most of whom considered Maori "unfit" to participate in government, opposed Maori representation in Parliament, while some MPs from the other end of the spectrum (such as James FitzGerald, who had proposed allocating a third of Parliament to Maori) regarded the concessions given to Maori as insufficient. In the end the setting up of Maori electorates separate from existing electorates assuaged conservative opposition to the bill – conservatives had previously feared that Maori would gain the right to vote in general electorates, thereby forcing all MPs (rather than just four Maori MPs) to take notice of Maori opinion.
Before this law came into effect, no direct prohibition on Maori voting existed, but other indirect prohibitions made it extremely difficult for Maori to exercise their theoretical electoral rights. The most significant problem involved the property qualification – to vote, one needed to possess a certain value of land. Maori owned a great deal of land, but they held it in common, not under individual title, and under the law, only land held under individual title could count towards the property qualification. Donald McLean explicitly intended his bill as a temporary measure, giving specific representation to Maori until they adopted European customs of land ownership. However, the Maori electorates lasted far longer than the intended five years, and remain in place today, despite the property qualification for voting being removed in 1879." 


As such, all impediments (both direct & indirect, both real & perceived) to Maori exercising their electoral rights in general electorates were removed in 1879.

Accordingly, NZ is only 134yrs overdue to remove institutional racism from it's electoral law.

Yet somehow I'm certain that I will be labelled either 'racist' or failing that, 'ignorant' for pointing that out.


As I said earlier when all the homework is done there will be a time when this can and should be done. A referendum after the next Election would be appropriate




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 It's our only home, lets clean it up then...

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 


606 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 849613 5-Jul-2013 11:35
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KiwiNZ:
As I said earlier when all the homework is done there will be a time when this can and should be done. A referendum after the next Election would be appropriate


Good call Smile

...and for what it's worth, I believe that the referendum should be conducted by members of the Maori role, for members of the Maori role.  Whatever decision is reached, it should ideally be agreed to by the people effected, rather than the general population.

IMHO it would be a great step towards true independence & self determination.  (though I am aware there are others who believe that altogether different roads lead to those ideals)

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  Reply # 849615 5-Jul-2013 11:39
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6FIEND:
KiwiNZ:
As I said earlier when all the homework is done there will be a time when this can and should be done. A referendum after the next Election would be appropriate


Good call Smile

...and for what it's worth, I believe that the referendum should be conducted by members of the Maori role, for members of the Maori role.  Whatever decision is reached, it should ideally be agreed to by the people effected, rather than the general population.

IMHO it would be a great step towards true independence & self determination.  (though I am aware there are others who believe that altogether different roads lead to those ideals)


Or we can just bulldoze it through like they did with same sex marriage. Who cares about holding a referendum?

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  Reply # 849618 5-Jul-2013 11:46
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If I heard correctly on the radio the other day, there was some commentary about those signing up for the Maori role diminishing to the point that it was nearly a joke. If that is the case the society it appears is moving on from these separatist policies.

On topic - it appears that Shearer doesn't even agree. This party just cannot get it's act together. Are we witnessing the slow demise of the party I wonder?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/8880664/Shearer-against-man-ban

Edit:  I forgot.... +1 for Jacinda :-)






Always be yourself, unless you can be Batman, then always be the Batman



687 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 849627 5-Jul-2013 12:00
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Labour just needs someone with some balls, like Helen Clarke.

I am not now nor am I likely to be a labour supporter, but, for the first 2 terms of their reign, she led with conviction and determination, even if I dont agree with the message / policies that were delivered, she was to be admired.

Shearer, Cunliffe, whats his name that lost last time, all just muppets

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 849629 5-Jul-2013 12:01
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re maori seats:

i understood one reason they were set up was to ensure that maori would only have limited say within parliament ie. 4 MP's only

interesting to call it separatist - with all the negative connotations that brings.....given that it's about ensuring a voice for maori

that said - i am on the maori roll, but wouldn't sweat them being dropped as i believe we can gain representation nowadays through the general roll / seats - but it should be a decision made by those on the maori roll via referendum and no one else


re steamrolling through the same sex legislation:

are you serious?

polls suggested overwhelming support from the general populace - religious busybodies aside

why do i call them busybodies? because imho what people want to do with their lives - when harming no one else, is there freakin' business, no one else's...

and more to the point - surely we don't need a referendum to provide our fellow gay/lesbian/transgender citizens equal rights - do we?

its called doing whats RIGHT and FAIR.

ok - my 2c :p

1301 posts

Uber Geek
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  Reply # 849644 5-Jul-2013 12:09
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6FIEND:
KiwiNZ:
"The establishment of Maori electorates came about in 1867 during the term of the 4th Parliament with the Maori Representation Act, drafted by Napier MP Donald McLean.[2] Parliament passed the Act only after lengthy debate. Many conservative MPs, most of whom considered Maori "unfit" to participate in government, opposed Maori representation in Parliament, while some MPs from the other end of the spectrum (such as James FitzGerald, who had proposed allocating a third of Parliament to Maori) regarded the concessions given to Maori as insufficient. In the end the setting up of Maori electorates separate from existing electorates assuaged conservative opposition to the bill – conservatives had previously feared that Maori would gain the right to vote in general electorates, thereby forcing all MPs (rather than just four Maori MPs) to take notice of Maori opinion.
Before this law came into effect, no direct prohibition on Maori voting existed, but other indirect prohibitions made it extremely difficult for Maori to exercise their theoretical electoral rights. The most significant problem involved the property qualification – to vote, one needed to possess a certain value of land. Maori owned a great deal of land, but they held it in common, not under individual title, and under the law, only land held under individual title could count towards the property qualification. Donald McLean explicitly intended his bill as a temporary measure, giving specific representation to Maori until they adopted European customs of land ownership. However, the Maori electorates lasted far longer than the intended five years, and remain in place today, despite the property qualification for voting being removed in 1879." 


As such, all impediments (both direct & indirect, both real & perceived) to Maori exercising their electoral rights in general electorates were removed in 1879.

Accordingly, NZ is only 134yrs overdue to remove institutional racism from it's electoral law.

Yet somehow I'm certain that I will be labelled either 'racist' or failing that, 'ignorant' for pointing that out.


Not racist, just misinformed ;) 

6FIEND: 
As such, all impediments (both direct & indirect, both real & perceived) to Maori exercising their electoral rights in general electorates were removed in 1879.


Until 1975, it was not permitted for any person with half or more Maori descent to enrol on the general role. We were not allowed to vote in a European electorate. The voting method, voting rights, enrolment, candidate rights, electorate determinations, and the constitutional status of the electoral system, were all different for Maori. 
This was changed in the 1993 electoral reforms. 

Since 1967, anyone can stand for election in a Maori electorate. Not just Maori-anyone. 

To quote the Hon. Justice Wallace, from ‘A History of Maori Representation in Parliament’, in Report of the Royal Commission on the Electoral System: Towards a Better Democracy, The Royal Commission on the Electoral System 1986, "It was essential to have a full understanding of the history of Maori representation…Unless decisions concerning Maori representation are made in the context of our history … past misunderstandings are likely to continue."

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 849663 5-Jul-2013 12:27
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I can accept a "miss-informed" label ;-)

...and amend the 'overdue' number to a mere 20yrs!

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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 849664 5-Jul-2013 12:29
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Just to add - there was a referedum in 1986. The Maori electorates stayed as a result. National stated in 2008 that it intends to disestablish them when all historic treaty claims are finalised. 

As to Labour's proposal - I think its cracked. NZ is a representative democracy and we definitely do need better representation but this is not, IMO, the way to go about it. 

If I was in government I'd be proposing that NZ education is changed to include civics in its syllabus. Until such a time as Kiwis are more educated about politics and our rights and ability to be involved there will always be an issue with getting the right balance of representation. 

Looking only at gender imbalance I see a couple of issues. All government in NZ is poorly represented by women. This is evident at the local government level and at the national level. However, a balance of genders doesn't equate to a balance of skills or proper representation. Politics is tough but most people treat elections as a popularity poll.  The people whose names are known and who appear to have a good public profile get the votes, irrespective of their qualifications and ability to do the job. 

I am, however, reminded of my first election campaign where I had a number of men tell me that they liked me and thought I would be a great city councillor, but wouldn't vote for me because I am a woman. Several told me that they didn't believe women were "cut out for the work". I won. Twice. But the exit surveys done when female city councillors leave almost always reports anti-female bias as one of the issues women found most difficult in doing their job. 

Setting quotas to give a sense of balanced representation will, IMO, do nothing more than put a feel-good veneer over deeper issues of representation. 

Awesome
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  Reply # 849710 5-Jul-2013 13:40
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Diversity is rarely a bad thing and I support moves (in principal) to bring better representation and diversity to our political parties.

At the moment, I see most of the parties as largely 'old boys club'. Certainly there are (often unseen) barriers to certain group getting into the 'club'.

I agree that our elected officials should be chosen on merit. The problem is that many of them are truly incompetent which leads me to believe that the selection process is broken (Probably due to the influence of the old boys club mentioned above).

The public only get to vote on the candidates that get put forward by the party.




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