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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 853318 10-Jul-2013 13:51
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NZCrusader:
KiwiNZ: 

Group A

Very high unemployment, poor Housing, very poor health status and high hospital admission, very high prison and offending including family and other violence. Much lower life expectancy.
Current cost of Benefit payments, Hospital and other health cost, Prison and other crime cost make up a high percentage of the fiscal vote.



So it is our job to pay for people who:
-Muck around at school.
-Don't try at life and get off their own backside.
-Participate in crime.

Really?


KiwiNZ: 
Group B
Less than average unemployment rates, average to better than average housing, Health status meeting WHO expectations, much lower crime and other offending. Life expectancy meeting WHO expectations.

Cost of benefit payments, health etc lower and generally short term,



Yea this is what happens when you go to school, try and actually do something with your life.



KiwiNZ: 
Group C

Very low to zero unemployment rates and generally very short in duration and frequency, well above average housing, well above average health status, very low offending and above average life expectancy.

Very low cost to the fiscal vote.

Given that it makes absolute sense to address the problems that group A has first as the gains to the community as a whole are greater and long term, in other words more bang for your buck. Yes groups B and C may feel they are aggrieved that they are missing out, but that is misinformation and they stand to gain greater in the long term by less fiscal drain on the Government and taxation.

Fix that which is broken first improve others latter. 



This is what happens when you may inherit a fortune, win lotto or work really hard and achieve.






The flaw with your argument is:


A - I wasn't there for the signing of the treaty. I don't actually give a crap about it. I live here and I expect everyone else who lives in this day and age in this country to have equal rights.

B - You think that it is up to people like me, who work hard and never cease to study to fork out for people who muck around or do not apply themselves.


Honestly, how do you think people are going to feel if they have had to go to school, study, work hard and then see their peers who mucked around (regardless of culture) get freebies like what Mana is trying to offer.

Defeats the purpose of anyone trying at life if there are always freebies that deter anyone actually working hard for it.


Not sure what everyone else's views are, but these are mine.


O that classic stereotyping that gave us so much amusement at work




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 853320 10-Jul-2013 14:00
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Pakeha Party founder admits criminal background
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10896079

What a surprise.




#include <standard.disclaimer>

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  Reply # 853324 10-Jul-2013 14:12
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dickytim: ... snip

This whole thread has missed the point and does not address the route cause of poverty in a group, which is .....

Culture.

The culture of the I Want It.


And that unfortunately, is ignorance in a nutshell.

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  Reply # 853325 10-Jul-2013 14:14
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alexx: Pakeha Party founder admits criminal background
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10896079

What a surprise.


It doesn't matter though, he's entitled to lobby for whatever he wants.  I just wish he'd done it more intelligently.

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  Reply # 853334 10-Jul-2013 14:22
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alexx: Pakeha Party founder admits criminal background
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10896079

What a surprise.


If he has served his time then the debt is paid and that should not affect his future. Unfortunately his attitudes will hinder his future.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 853965 11-Jul-2013 15:58
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KiwiNZ: O that classic stereotyping that gave us so much amusement at work



Your comments made us face palm at our place of work.

Do you work for Mana or the Maori party?



Would explain a few things.




NZ / AU Battlefield 4 Gaming Community
http://www.sonsofvalour.net/forums/forum.php

Awesome
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  Reply # 854032 11-Jul-2013 17:48
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NZCrusader:
So it is our job to pay for people who:
-Muck around at school.
-Don't try at life and get off their own backside.
-Participate in crime.

Really?[


This is exactly the kind of thinking that allows things like 'white privilege' to continue.

Your statement shows an extremely poor understanding of the problem and it's causes.




Twitter: ajobbins


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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 854043 11-Jul-2013 18:25
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ajobbins:
NZCrusader:
So it is our job to pay for people who:
-Muck around at school.
-Don't try at life and get off their own backside.
-Participate in crime.

Really?[


This is exactly the kind of thinking that allows things like 'white privilege' to continue.

Your statement shows an extremely poor understanding of the problem and it's causes.


Yet you are the first person to reference "colour" in that argument?
Ironic much?

Everyone seems to latch onto 'race' as an easy answer, but it's not about race - it's about a level of engagement with wider society. A desire to better oneself and contribute in a positive way. There are plenty of deadbeat white people who also contribute nothing other than rising welfare costs and crime rates.

(However there *is* a particular race that have been told for generations that they have been held back or marginalised by history and that *something* has to be changed before they can move on with creating a future for themselves. I wonder if this has anything to do with their individual motivation to succeed? Imagine if you we're told that generally speaking, you wouldn't be able to achieve the same results as the guy sitting next to you unless society changed in some way... How many of you would wait for that change before putting in the effort?)

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  Reply # 854057 11-Jul-2013 19:04
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NZCrusader:
KiwiNZ: O that classic stereotyping that gave us so much amusement at work



Your comments made us face palm at our place of work.

Do you work for Mana or the Maori party?



Would explain a few things.


No




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 854135 11-Jul-2013 22:58
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KiwiNZ: It is not a hard concept one last attempt......

Facepalmed before I even read the rest.

KiwiNZ:
Group A

Very high unemployment, poor Housing, very poor health status and high hospital admission, very high prison and offending including family and other violence. Much lower life expectancy.
Current cost of Benefit payments, Hospital and other health cost, Prison and other crime cost make up a high percentage of the fiscal vote.

Group B
Less than average unemployment rates, average to better than average housing, Health status meeting WHO expectations, much lower crime and other offending. Life expectancy meeting WHO expectations.

Cost of benefit payments, health etc lower and generally short term,

Group C

Very low to zero unemployment rates and generally very short in duration and frequency, well above average housing, well above average health status, very low offending and above average life expectancy.

Very low cost to the fiscal vote.

Given that it makes absolute sense to address the problems that group A has first as the gains to the community as a whole are greater and long term, in other words more bang for your buck. Yes groups B and C may feel they are aggrieved that they are missing out, but that is misinformation and they stand to gain greater in the long term by less fiscal drain on the Government and taxation.

Fix that which is broken first improve others latter. 



And that would make perfect sense to the argument at hand, if those groups actually had anything to do with race. But having a particular skin colour doesn't automatically put you into one of those groups. Now I could understand providing a universal benefit/whatever to addressing a problem, and I can even understand targeting the campaign more towards the cultural group most heavily represented amongst the target demographic. But to simply state that the target demographic is 'people with x skin colour', and that no-one else otherwise meeting the criteria of group A will receive any help, well that is both racist and a cope out.

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  Reply # 854150 11-Jul-2013 23:58
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6FIEND: snip...

(However there *is* a particular race that have been told for generations that they have been held back or marginalised by history and that *something* has to be changed before they can move on with creating a future for themselves. I wonder if this has anything to do with their individual motivation to succeed? Imagine if you we're told that generally speaking, you wouldn't be able to achieve the same results as the guy sitting next to you unless society changed in some way... How many of you would wait for that change before putting in the effort?)


So which country does this particular race live in and how is that relevant to NZ?

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  Reply # 854164 12-Jul-2013 06:59
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I still fail to see how this blatant racism, where you can have something if you are part of this racial group is accepted, no one have actually answered this question, except to say that racism is acceptable so long as you are not white.

I was born in NZ and moved to Australia at 7 months old, obviously not my choice.

I mucked around at school, when I was there I was a straight A student, but in my teachers words "didn't apply myself" I left school once I figured there was no point in going anymore, so I got a job, I got fired for having the same attitude to that job as I did to school, for a few years I did crap jobs, was on the dole then decided there was something better than having nothing and smoking cigarettes all day and playing Nintendo.

I got a job working at Hungry Jacks (Burger King) actually worked hard at this job, but when I hit 21 was too expensive to keep on so was targeted for bullying by management and ended up exploding and getting fired. From there I worked as a car groomer, then a friend got me a job in a warehouse where I could earn decent money, from there I transferred to the NZ branch of the company, left after a little while, from there I got a couple of temping jobs before being employed as a storeman/purchasing officer for a small company, when they looked like they were going to go belly up I moved to where I am now, as a storeman. Having learnt my lesson I decided to really apply myself and learn our product, what it did and how it worked, soon after I moved into customer services/warehousing, then customer services/inventory control, then to purchasing officer, then to Logistics manager, then to Logistics Manager/IT manager, where I currently am.

I have also Taken up Dressage and training horses.

My parents never had anything when I was growing up, sometime not even enough to have food on the table.

Tell me where was my leg up? Where was my privilidge? Where have I oppressed to get where I am?

I am self taught in everything I know and do.

BTW I am out of this thread before someone invokes Godwins law and we all end up banned.


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  Reply # 854165 12-Jul-2013 07:18
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You can lead a horse to water...........

Some final words then I am gone. This thread and others has shown that many folks need to get out and really see NZ.

E noho ra




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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  Reply # 854169 12-Jul-2013 07:50
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dickytim: I still fail to see how this blatant racism, where you can have something if you are part of this racial group is accepted, no one have actually answered this question, except to say that racism is acceptable so long as you are not white.

I was born in NZ and moved to Australia at 7 months old, obviously not my choice.

I mucked around at school, when I was there I was a straight A student, but in my teachers words "didn't apply myself" I left school once I figured there was no point in going anymore, so I got a job, I got fired for having the same attitude to that job as I did to school, for a few years I did crap jobs, was on the dole then decided there was something better than having nothing and smoking cigarettes all day and playing Nintendo.

I got a job working at Hungry Jacks (Burger King) actually worked hard at this job, but when I hit 21 was too expensive to keep on so was targeted for bullying by management and ended up exploding and getting fired. From there I worked as a car groomer, then a friend got me a job in a warehouse where I could earn decent money, from there I transferred to the NZ branch of the company, left after a little while, from there I got a couple of temping jobs before being employed as a storeman/purchasing officer for a small company, when they looked like they were going to go belly up I moved to where I am now, as a storeman. Having learnt my lesson I decided to really apply myself and learn our product, what it did and how it worked, soon after I moved into customer services/warehousing, then customer services/inventory control, then to purchasing officer, then to Logistics manager, then to Logistics Manager/IT manager, where I currently am.

I have also Taken up Dressage and training horses.

My parents never had anything when I was growing up, sometime not even enough to have food on the table.

Tell me where was my leg up? Where was my privilidge? Where have I oppressed to get where I am?

I am self taught in everything I know and do.

BTW I am out of this thread before someone invokes Godwins law and we all end up banned.



Your story demonstrates privilege.  Privilege doesn't give you a free ride, but it does not deny you opportunities.  If you'd been different somehow, let's say you were dark skinned for sake of the current argument, and tried just as hard to turn your life around, think about these questions and situations and be honest about it.

Would that boss have hired you at Hungry Jack's?  Would you have been hired at that car yard?  Would you have been hired at the warehouse?  Would they have accepted your request to relocate to NZ?  Would you have gotten promoted to where you are now or passed over?  Is being discriminated against something you even had to consider when plucking up the courage to try for all these things?  And then you mention Dressage and horses?  Would that crowd have let you "in"?

It may be invisible to you but it's there all the same.  It's nice to assume that if anyone works as hard or tries as hard they can get the same result, but unfortunately it's not the case, people are discriminated against constantly due to factors beyond their control such as their race, appearance or sexual orientation.  It's easy enough, and a lot more comfortable to ignore it as one who isn't discriminated against, and believe instead that people are purely victims of their own actions/inaction and nothing else, but it's simply not true, discrimination is everywhere.

And that really is me done this time :) keeping away before this thread really turns nasty.



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  Reply # 854196 12-Jul-2013 08:58
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ubergeeknz: It's nice to assume that if anyone works as hard or tries as hard they can get the same result, but unfortunately it's not the case, people are discriminated against constantly due to factors beyond their control such as their race, appearance or sexual orientation.  It's easy enough, and a lot more comfortable to ignore it as one who isn't discriminated against, and believe instead that people are purely victims of their own actions/inaction and nothing else, but it's simply not true, discrimination is everywhere.


Brilliant summary.

And that my friend is what this "pakeha party" is after all trying to eliminate. Its not about giving more rights to any race. Its about trying to equal them out.

On one hand you make a statement like the above. But the next you making statements as to why you OK with such discrimination. And why we SHOULD DISCRIMINATE against certain groups. Which side of the fence are you on? Is it OK to discriminate or not?

ubergeeknz:
If you can find a study where NZ Europeans do not do better, as a group, than Maori or any other ethnicity then I'd love to see it.  

Until then I will stand by my conviction that, whether you call it Privilege or not, being a white NZer is just easier and we don't exist in a level playing field.


So the way we fix it is with more discrimination?


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