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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 854217 12-Jul-2013 09:28
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tigercorp:
6FIEND: snip...

(However there *is* a particular race that have been told for generations that they have been held back or marginalised by history and that *something* has to be changed before they can move on with creating a future for themselves. I wonder if this has anything to do with their individual motivation to succeed? Imagine if you we're told that generally speaking, you wouldn't be able to achieve the same results as the guy sitting next to you unless society changed in some way... How many of you would wait for that change before putting in the effort?)


So which country does this particular race live in and how is that relevant to NZ?


I'm sure the answer you seek is perfectly self-evident to 99% of readers, however I'll give you a few extra clues because you seem to have a little difficulty keeping up:

* It is one of only a handful of countries in the world that have reserved seats in their Parliament for members of a particular race. (Is this because it is intrinsicly more difficult for people of that race being elected on merit?)
* It has established Governmental Tribunals and Councils to review and assess the historical wrongdoings and establish how significantly they have had a bearing on modern-day members of that race. (Is this because what happened a hundred years ago to someone's great grandfather materially effects how successful they can be today?)
* It has paid out hundreds of millions of dollars to the various leaders of that race. (Is this to "make up for" those historical wrongdoings and the disadvantage they have perceived to have caused?)
* It has special Governmental programmes across a broad spectrum specifically targetting that one particular race - Health, Education, Housing, Culture - even Television!! (Is this because members of that race need more help than members of other races?)
* It has reserved seats on some Local Councils for members of that race. (Is this becasue they need more help to get elected than members of other races?)

I'm certain that it's not intentional, but all this special treatment undoubtedly results in a sense of "I'm special" entitlement. And the justification for the "special" status is because their ancestors were victims of colonial wrongdoing. (Which I am absolutely NOT denying) All of which combines at a sub-conscious level resulting in a "victim mentality" (despite all the good intentions) which becomes self perpetuating.



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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 854219 12-Jul-2013 09:32
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6FIEND:
* It is one of only a handful of countries in the world that have reserved seats in their Parliament for members of a particular race. (Is this because it is intrinsicly more difficult for people of that race being elected on merit?)
* It has established Governmental Tribunals and Councils to review and assess the historical wrongdoings and establish how significantly they have had a bearing on modern-day members of that race. (Is this because what happened a hundred years ago to someone's great grandfather materially effects how successful they can be today?)
* It has paid out hundreds of millions of dollars to the various leaders of that race. (Is this to "make up for" those historical wrongdoings and the disadvantage they have perceived to have caused?)
* It has special Governmental programmes across a broad spectrum specifically targetting that one particular race - Health, Education, Housing, Culture - even Television!! (Is this because members of that race need more help than members of other races?)
* It has reserved seats on some Local Councils for members of that race. (Is this becasue they need more help to get elected than members of other races?)


And on the other hand. All of the above cannot be enough.
Some people still move to Australia where they will choose a life (without all of the above), with less rights than the Aussies, and still do better for themselves. If they do fine in Aus, why not here?

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 854238 12-Jul-2013 09:56
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ubergeeknz:
If you can find a study where NZ Europeans do not do better, as a group, than Maori or any other ethnicity then I'd love to see it.  

Until then I will stand by my conviction that, whether you call it Privilege or not, being a white NZer is just easier and we don't exist in a level playing field.



Repeat after me:

Correlation does not imply causation.
Correlation does not imply causation.
Correlation does not imply causation.
Correlation does not imply causation.

But if you're still looking for such a study...  I'll refer you to the 2011 General Election.

There are 21 MPs who have self-identified as being of Maori descent


17.3% of MPs are Maori, despite making up only 14.6% of NZ's population.  Therefore if correlation does imply causation, It is easier for Maori to get elected to Parliament than for the rest of New Zealanders...


But somehow I don't believe that you'll change you mind...

[edit: added link to demographic figure]

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 854247 12-Jul-2013 10:23
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ajobbins:
NZCrusader:
So it is our job to pay for people who:
-Muck around at school.
-Don't try at life and get off their own backside.
-Participate in crime.

Really?[


This is exactly the kind of thinking that allows things like 'white privilege' to continue.

Your statement shows an extremely poor understanding of the problem and it's causes.




I never mentioned any race at all.

I don't care what culture anyone is. I just believe that there should be equality.


If people just get easy handouts, then they will never be motivated to go and do something productive.




I would rather my taxes paying for the pensioners to live as they have already done their bit to contribute to our society, rather than able bodied young people and groups who just want free handouts.



Now we will bring in the culture argument.

If you think that giving one culture in NZ free handouts at the cost of everyone else......
-How is that fair?
-Do you honestly think that it will motivate that culture to work harder or do something productive?
-Are you willing to fork out for it?  

Personally I am not willing to fork out for it. 

I have had to work hard and study hard for what I have, to which I still continue to do.
There is no free ride.


Should not everyone else in this country who wants things have to work equally hard?


Or should I and others like me have to work even harder to fork out for those that don't try?






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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 854248 12-Jul-2013 10:25
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KiwiNZ: 

Some final words then I am gone. 





The only statement in this entire thread that I could +1 you on.


Cheerio.




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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 854290 12-Jul-2013 11:46
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ubergeeknz: It's nice to assume that if anyone works as hard or tries as hard they can get the same result, but unfortunately it's not the case, people are discriminated against constantly due to factors beyond their control such as their race, appearance or sexual orientation.  It's easy enough, and a lot more comfortable to ignore it as one who isn't discriminated against, and believe instead that people are purely victims of their own actions/inaction and nothing else, but it's simply not true, discrimination is everywhere.


That makes no sense, your trying to argue that discrimination is good because it's unfortunate that people are discriminated against. What.

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 854296 12-Jul-2013 11:56

PaulBags:
ubergeeknz: It's nice to assume that if anyone works as hard or tries as hard they can get the same result, but unfortunately it's not the case, people are discriminated against constantly due to factors beyond their control such as their race, appearance or sexual orientation.  It's easy enough, and a lot more comfortable to ignore it as one who isn't discriminated against, and believe instead that people are purely victims of their own actions/inaction and nothing else, but it's simply not true, discrimination is everywhere.


That makes no sense, your trying to argue that discrimination is good because it's unfortunate that people are discriminated against. What.


Made sense to me. I thought it was explaining the point well.




don't mess with me.... i'm the hd insider....

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  Reply # 854298 12-Jul-2013 11:59
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PaulBags:
ubergeeknz: It's nice to assume that if anyone works as hard or tries as hard they can get the same result, but unfortunately it's not the case, people are discriminated against constantly due to factors beyond their control such as their race, appearance or sexual orientation.  It's easy enough, and a lot more comfortable to ignore it as one who isn't discriminated against, and believe instead that people are purely victims of their own actions/inaction and nothing else, but it's simply not true, discrimination is everywhere.


That makes no sense, your trying to argue that discrimination is good because it's unfortunate that people are discriminated against. What.


You seem to have missed the point entirely. That isn't an argument that discrimination is good, it's the discrimination exists regardless of 'how hard' someone works or tries.

Same inputs = different outputs (depending on factors like race, sex, sexual orientation)




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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 854304 12-Jul-2013 12:03
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hdinsider:
PaulBags:
ubergeeknz: It's nice to assume that if anyone works as hard or tries as hard they can get the same result, but unfortunately it's not the case, people are discriminated against constantly due to factors beyond their control such as their race, appearance or sexual orientation.  It's easy enough, and a lot more comfortable to ignore it as one who isn't discriminated against, and believe instead that people are purely victims of their own actions/inaction and nothing else, but it's simply not true, discrimination is everywhere.


That makes no sense, your trying to argue that discrimination is good because it's unfortunate that people are discriminated against. What.


Made sense to me. I thought it was explaining the point well.


So how will discriminating MORE help to end discrimination?

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 854326 12-Jul-2013 12:56
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ajobbins:
PaulBags:
ubergeeknz: It's nice to assume that if anyone works as hard or tries as hard they can get the same result, but unfortunately it's not the case, people are discriminated against constantly due to factors beyond their control such as their race, appearance or sexual orientation.  It's easy enough, and a lot more comfortable to ignore it as one who isn't discriminated against, and believe instead that people are purely victims of their own actions/inaction and nothing else, but it's simply not true, discrimination is everywhere.


That makes no sense, your trying to argue that discrimination is good because it's unfortunate that people are discriminated against. What.


You seem to have missed the point entirely. That isn't an argument that discrimination is good, it's the discrimination exists regardless of 'how hard' someone works or tries.

Same inputs = different outputs (depending on factors like race, sex, sexual orientation)




So because some people are "discriminated" against by other people, myself and others like me, should fork out for freebies to the small quantity of people who are being discriminated against.................. because that is just going to fix everything right.....



Good plan.  <Inserts facepalm>




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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 854449 12-Jul-2013 16:16
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ajobbins:
PaulBags:
ubergeeknz: It's nice to assume that if anyone works as hard or tries as hard they can get the same result, but unfortunately it's not the case, people are discriminated against constantly due to factors beyond their control such as their race, appearance or sexual orientation.  It's easy enough, and a lot more comfortable to ignore it as one who isn't discriminated against, and believe instead that people are purely victims of their own actions/inaction and nothing else, but it's simply not true, discrimination is everywhere.


That makes no sense, your trying to argue that discrimination is good because it's unfortunate that people are discriminated against. What.


You seem to have missed the point entirely. That isn't an argument that discrimination is good, it's the discrimination exists regardless of 'how hard' someone works or tries.

Same inputs = different outputs (depending on factors like race, sex, sexual orientation)


This is untrue.

Can you back that statement up with any recent apples to apples evidence?

Nonetheless, even if that statement were true, trying to artificially 'balance' the situation by mandating further discrimination is not a solution. Addressing the root causes of any discrimination is the only way to solve this issue.

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 854478 12-Jul-2013 17:19
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All this figuring out whether it's right or wrong to discriminate is not going to make one bit of difference. It's the government of our country that makes the rules and policies on how public money is spent.  As long as political parties have to pander to minorities in order to keep power then that's precisely what they will do.  What we have now is simply a legacy of 20 years of MMP.  While we have MMP nothing's going to change. And it's become self-perpetuating, so better get used to it.




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  Reply # 854481 12-Jul-2013 17:41
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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 854494 12-Jul-2013 18:05
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ajobbins: Not a bad read:

White Privilege: Exploring the (in)visibility of Pakeha whiteness


Sorry, but I stopped reading when the author stated up front that it was all based on "in-depth conversations with 15 pakeha."

Yeah, that's a sample size of 0.0005% and its entirely anecdotal.

Amazing what passes for a Thesis these days...

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  Reply # 854503 12-Jul-2013 18:22
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6FIEND: Amazing what passes for a Thesis these days...


What did you do your thesis on?




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