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  Reply # 854525 12-Jul-2013 19:05
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ajobbins:

What did you do your thesis on?


Douchebaggery ;-)

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  Reply # 854619 12-Jul-2013 20:52
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I skipped straight to the "White Privilege" section and read about as much as I could stomach*, and 'white privilege' seems to boil down to "white people made the system and so they inherently benefit from it". I won't pretend to know any facts, but it was presented earlier in this thread that a number of Maori chieftains initiated the dialogue that led to the Treaty of Waitangi, and of course I doubt very much that it signed itself.

At this point in the countries history we're all here together. If Maori want to segregate themselves to resume their prior system of governance (grass skirts and inter-tribal warfare) then I'm okay with that. If they want to join the rest of us and influence the current system with their values and beliefs then I'm okay with that. If they want to go into civil war with the rest of us I'm even okay with that, although good luck starting anything with state security watching everyone.

But I'm not okay with a bunch of rich tribal elders doling out scholarships and other privileges based on race, (although it is their right to give 'their' money to whomever they like), and I vehemently oppose any attempt to introduce racist policies into New Zealand law books. Let's not forget that the "Pakeha Party" and this entire discussion was born from the Maori Party proposing to introduce state funded housing for Maori only.

*it seems to be 90% references, the author really doesn't seem to form a coherent thought of their own. But then this thesis probably wasn't meant for laymen consumption.

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  Reply # 854642 12-Jul-2013 21:34
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man so many of you need to read about our history so you can at least comment from an informed position

rattling off ill informed opinions and worse showing NO desire to move beyond a position of ignorance is pretty sad

i would have expected a better quality of debate here - seems i was mistaken....





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  Reply # 854643 12-Jul-2013 21:34
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ajobbins: Not a bad read:

White Privilege: Exploring the (in)visibility of Pakeha whiteness


The preoccupation of this study is white privilege: the concept that those of us who are white have at our disposal a number of unearned advantages that enable us to live our lives with greater ease than many non whites. In one of the most widely cited pieces of writing on the subject, Peggy McIntosh (1988) presented a list of privileges, that she had access to simply because of her skin colour. Many white people, she contended, do not acknowledge these advantages and the ways in which the institutions which constitute Western society privilege members of the dominant white majority.


What a disappointment of a read. The author misses one major point in that thesis. In fact I'm quiet astounded that the University of Canterbury lets people write such cr@p

Pakeha does not mean "white". Nor does it relate directly to European. 

Its real definition is simply "not Maori". The others!

Maori can be anyone with 1 in 512 parts blood. Thats probably more white than me Laughing

Therefore white Europeans, Indians, black South Africans, Latin Americans, Italians, Jamacians (Cool Runnings) .... Hell anybody that comes to NZ is discriminated against when compared to Maori(remember that 1 in 512?). We all Pakeha. 


Please explain to me how I am "advantaged" (because I am white) when compared to say Filipinos, Indians or Cool Runnings.  

The truth is I am not. The only race in the world that I am discriminated against is Maori. This despite me being a New Zealander, a NZ citizen. I worked just as hard to get where I am today as my Filipino, black African/American friends. They did not have it any harder than me. They dont have the "upper leg" on me and I don't have the "upper leg" on them. Maori have the "upper leg" on all of us

Lets forget race completely. Lets move forward as New Zealanders. It does not matter where we all from, or the colour of our skin, or our blood count. Its time we put this one to bed. There is no reason why certain people should receive certain benefits based solely on race or blood count. Its discrimination...






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  Reply # 854674 12-Jul-2013 23:08
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driller2000: man so many of you need to read about our history so you can at least comment from an informed position


I really don't care what happened to a bunch of dead people, I care what's happening now. The past happened, you can't change what happened so you really can't fix it. But you can change how you act now. Some seem to think discriminating now is ok because of past discrimination. I don't, I don't think discrimination is ok period. You can if you want, but I will never, ever, understand why.

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  Reply # 854737 13-Jul-2013 06:21
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PaulBags:
driller2000: man so many of you need to read about our history so you can at least comment from an informed position


I really don't care what happened to a bunch of dead people, I care what's happening now. The past happened, you can't change what happened so you really can't fix it. But you can change how you act now. Some seem to think discriminating now is ok because of past discrimination. I don't, I don't think discrimination is ok period. You can if you want, but I will never, ever, understand why.


if you cant understand that wrongs were done - and that they can be addressed and are in fact being addressed - for the benefit of the entire nation - you are exactly the person i was referring to and i won't waste anymore space on the interwebs "arguing" with the likes of you

enjoy your bubble

gzt

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  Reply # 854766 13-Jul-2013 09:21
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I have not seen any details of the policy, but it is instantly recognisable as an old Maori Affairs dept policy. For the Mana party I think it has more to do with producing a policy that is instantly recognisable to an earlier generation of Maori voters and taking a position that is uncompromising in contrast to the incumbent Maori Party. In any case they long since made clear it is open to everyone regardless of race.

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  Reply # 854882 13-Jul-2013 11:20
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6FIEND:
tigercorp:
6FIEND: snip...

(However there *is* a particular race that have been told for generations that they have been held back or marginalised by history and that *something* has to be changed before they can move on with creating a future for themselves. I wonder if this has anything to do with their individual motivation to succeed? Imagine if you we're told that generally speaking, you wouldn't be able to achieve the same results as the guy sitting next to you unless society changed in some way... How many of you would wait for that change before putting in the effort?)


So which country does this particular race live in and how is that relevant to NZ?


I'm sure the answer you seek is perfectly self-evident to 99% of readers, however I'll give you a few extra clues because you seem to have a little difficulty keeping up:

* It is one of only a handful of countries in the world that have reserved seats in their Parliament for members of a particular race. (Is this because it is intrinsicly more difficult for people of that race being elected on merit?)
* It has established Governmental Tribunals and Councils to review and assess the historical wrongdoings and establish how significantly they have had a bearing on modern-day members of that race. (Is this because what happened a hundred years ago to someone's great grandfather materially effects how successful they can be today?)
* It has paid out hundreds of millions of dollars to the various leaders of that race. (Is this to "make up for" those historical wrongdoings and the disadvantage they have perceived to have caused?)
* It has special Governmental programmes across a broad spectrum specifically targetting that one particular race - Health, Education, Housing, Culture - even Television!! (Is this because members of that race need more help than members of other races?)
* It has reserved seats on some Local Councils for members of that race. (Is this becasue they need more help to get elected than members of other races?)


Is all that really meant to support your claim that Maori "have been told for generations that they have been held back or marginalised by history and that *something* has to be changed before they can move on with creating a future for themselves."?  Cos those links seem fairly tenuous to that claim and in fact, that claim sounds more like unsubstantiated rhetoric.

Imagine if you we're told that generally speaking, you wouldn't be able to achieve the same results as the guy sitting next to you unless society changed in some way... How many of you would wait for that change before putting in the effort?)


I don't know how many would wait. I'd expect it would be quite a lot considering I can't think any colonised minority every pulling themselves out of the poverty cycles they mysteriously find themselves in.
I'd definitely expect some to not wait though, and attempt to pull themselves out of that cycle. They'd have to be fairly exceptional individuals though, because if was easy all the poor white, yellow, black, brown and red people of the world would have done it already.  Right?
And I guess there would also be a minority that would not only try to better themselves, but also better the prospect of Maori as a group. Maybe by becoming radicals and trying to upset society so their cause isn't ignored.  Possibly by taking any channels of legal redress that are available to them.  And maybe even by lobbing for change through the political process.


I'm certain that it's not intentional, but all this special treatment undoubtedly results in a sense of "I'm special" entitlement. And the justification for the "special" status is because their ancestors were victims of colonial wrongdoing. (Which I am absolutely NOT denying) All of which combines at a sub-conscious level resulting in a "victim mentality" (despite all the good intentions) which becomes self perpetuating.


I'm curious how widespread you believe this "I'm special but I'm also a victim" mentality is. 90%? 50%? A couple of communities? A couple of Maori you saw on telly?  Cos using words like undoubtedly implies it must be all Maori, which of course would empirically hard to prove.  
Until every Maori I meet portrays them self as a militant victim I'm personally inclined to relegate that musing to a stereotype.

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  Reply # 854938 13-Jul-2013 14:10
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ITT:


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  Reply # 854950 13-Jul-2013 15:14
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gzt: I have not seen any details of the policy, but it is instantly recognisable as an old Maori Affairs dept policy. For the Mana party I think it has more to do with producing a policy that is instantly recognisable to an earlier generation of Maori voters and taking a position that is uncompromising in contrast to the incumbent Maori Party. In any case they long since made clear it is open to everyone regardless of race.


That old Maori Affairs home loan scheme was great. It didn't give anyone a hand-out (same fees and interest rates the banks were charging) but it provided mortgages to people the banks wouldn't touch. When my first husband died I wanted a home of my own in which to raise my child. Not one bank would take a chance on a Maori single mother. I had a deposit of 40% of the value of the property I wanted to buy, was working, had an excellent credit history and every initial approach to banks was met positively. Until they met me. I lost out on three properties over the six months I spent having banks tell me that Maori had poor work ethics, so my work history didn't matter, that Maori women were poor risks, that I'd never be able to pay a mortgage if I "continued having children without a father" (that, from the BNZ, not bothering to look at my application and see that being left on my own was not a life-style choice). It was six months of complete demoralisation and discrimination. Then I went to Maori Affairs. I got my loan, got my home, and have been a home-owner ever since. 

People who think discrimination doesn't exist are living in a bubble. It does and is still happening. Worse yet, much of it is unconscious and not overt enough to be able to take action against. 

I support the Mana Party plan because I know first-hand how much such home loans can help. I don't believe it will ever come to fruition but there is no doubt in my mind that such a scheme would benefit NZ as a whole. 



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  Reply # 854989 13-Jul-2013 16:39
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Elpie: 
I support the Mana Party plan because I know first-hand how much such home loans can help. I don't believe it will ever come to fruition but there is no doubt in my mind that such a scheme would benefit NZ as a whole. 


Well considering the fact that the leader of Mana the party, Hone Harawira is clearly an outright racist, who benefits from that? NZ as a whole? This guy creates more division in NZ than anybody else.

A snip from Hone's Wiki Page

Harawira lashed out at white people, stating "Gee Buddy, do you believe that white man bull**** too do you? White motherf***ers have been raping our lands and ripping us off for centuries and all of a sudden you want me to play along with their puritanical bullsh1t....And, quite frankly, I don't give a sh1t what you or anyone else thinks about it. OK?"


The fact that we allow this clown into Parliament is beyond me. 

I find it really strange that this "Pakeha" Party is being labeled racist. Yet, the Mana party is allowed to continue with a racist leader who makes such slurs and racist remarks towards white people.

We should be ashamed...Frankly I can't understand why you siding with this nutter.

We have a far way to go towards equity in NZ. Quiet frankly, I believe South Africa is way ahead of NZ. There was once a time when NZ fought against apartheid in South Africa, its amazing how the big wheel turns and now NZ seems to be creating its own "apartheid" policies, run by clear racists. 


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  Reply # 855097 13-Jul-2013 22:48
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driller2000:
PaulBags:
driller2000: man so many of you need to read about our history so you can at least comment from an informed position


I really don't care what happened to a bunch of dead people, I care what's happening now. The past happened, you can't change what happened so you really can't fix it. But you can change how you act now. Some seem to think discriminating now is ok because of past discrimination. I don't, I don't think discrimination is ok period. You can if you want, but I will never, ever, understand why.


if you cant understand that wrongs were done - and that they can be addressed and are in fact being addressed - for the benefit of the entire nation - you are exactly the person i was referring to and i won't waste anymore space on the interwebs "arguing" with the likes of you

enjoy your bubble


We're not talking about the treaty tribunal or actual redress, we're talking about arbitrary benefits, rights, and laws for one specific race. It's racist discrimination, and so it can't help to end discrimination. If you say A tribe had their land taken off of them unlawfully and they should be compensated that's completely just. But if you say B race is over represented in C statistic and so we're only going to help that portion of C statistic that happens to be B race, then that is discrimination based solely on race. It's unjust and wrong, and I'll be happy if just one person on the Maori side of this debate admits it.

 

Elpie:
gzt: I have not seen any details of the policy, but it is instantly recognisable as an old Maori Affairs dept policy. For the Mana party I think it has more to do with producing a policy that is instantly recognisable to an earlier generation of Maori voters and taking a position that is uncompromising in contrast to the incumbent Maori Party. In any case they long since made clear it is open to everyone regardless of race.


That old Maori Affairs home loan scheme was great. It didn't give anyone a hand-out (same fees and interest rates the banks were charging) but it provided mortgages to people the banks wouldn't touch. When my first husband died I wanted a home of my own in which to raise my child. Not one bank would take a chance on a Maori single mother. I had a deposit of 40% of the value of the property I wanted to buy, was working, had an excellent credit history and every initial approach to banks was met positively. Until they met me. I lost out on three properties over the six months I spent having banks tell me that Maori had poor work ethics, so my work history didn't matter, that Maori women were poor risks, that I'd never be able to pay a mortgage if I "continued having children without a father" (that, from the BNZ, not bothering to look at my application and see that being left on my own was not a life-style choice). It was six months of complete demoralisation and discrimination. Then I went to Maori Affairs. I got my loan, got my home, and have been a home-owner ever since. 

People who think discrimination doesn't exist are living in a bubble. It does and is still happening. Worse yet, much of it is unconscious and not overt enough to be able to take action against. 

I support the Mana Party plan because I know first-hand how much such home loans can help. I don't believe it will ever come to fruition but there is no doubt in my mind that such a scheme would benefit NZ as a whole. 


And that sucks and there needs to be a system in place to take these complaints and substantially reprimand banks/businesses/etc for not doing their job properly and fairly. The answer however cannot be more discrimination. It's an immediate way to level the playing field, to be sure, but it only reinforces the already existing discrimination.

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  Reply # 855614 15-Jul-2013 09:11
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Elpie: I support the Mana Party plan because I know first-hand how much such home loans can help. I don't believe it will ever come to fruition but there is no doubt in my mind that such a scheme would benefit NZ as a whole. 

That's a really sad situation and at a time where you needed the most support.  May I ask you though how long ago that was?

The reason for the question is that although I've only been here only 7 years, I get the impression that here 15+ years ago things were quite different; segregation, kids being told off for using Te Reo Maori. 

Now our children are positively immersed in the Maori culture and my wife is starting a Te Reo Maori language and culture course.

I would be surprised to see banks and similar institutions still having poor policy and decision makers to the point where a bank specifically for a race was needed.  Every major company has some kind of race relations team to prevent that from happening - don't they?

So my 2c to everyone.
Personally, as I've said before, I feel that "Positive Discrimination" is an oxymoron.  It cannot exist and provide either equality or equity amongst people of a nation.  Let's tackle poverty for example - but please, do not put a race or colour on it.  If people are sending their kids to school without food or adequate clothing - it is irrelevant what colour they are or where their ancestors were born.





Procrastination eventually pays off.


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  Reply # 855620 15-Jul-2013 09:24
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Elpie: When my first husband died I wanted a home of my own in which to raise my child. Not one bank would take a chance on a Maori single mother. I had a deposit of 40% of the value of the property I wanted to buy, was working, had an excellent credit history and every initial approach to banks was met positively. Until they met me. I lost out on three properties over the six months I spent having banks tell me that Maori had poor work ethics, so my work history didn't matter, that Maori women were poor risks, that I'd never be able to pay a mortgage if I "continued having children without a father" (that, from the BNZ, not bothering to look at my application and see that being left on my own was not a life-style choice). It was six months of complete demoralisation and discrimination. Then I went to Maori Affairs. I got my loan, got my home, and have been a home-owner ever since. 


My grandmother faced exactly the same situation when her husband died.  Except in her case it was being a single Dutch mother instead of a single Maori mother.

Does that mean that your case was "racism" and "white advantage" and my grandmother's case was "just life"?

People get turned down on loan applications all the time.  Does that mean that any Maori who is declined a credit application is automatically a victim of racism?  Honestly?

Personally, I would be much more concerned about anyone considering a policy that forced private individuals or privately held companies  (ie. Money lenders and Banks) to lend money to people who can't afford to make repayments.  In other words, forcing companies to make risky financial investments.   I thought we might have learned a lesson or two from the collaspe of the FInance Companies in NZ, and from the sub-prime mortgage driven GFC that has brought entire countries near to ruin.

They say that the road to hell is paved with good intentions...

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  Reply # 855868 15-Jul-2013 14:26
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StarBlazer: The reason for the question is that although I've only been here only 7 years, I get the impression that here 15+ years ago things were quite different; segregation, kids being told off for using Te Reo Maori. 

Now our children are positively immersed in the Maori culture and my wife is starting a Te Reo Maori language and culture course.


The problem is that many people still carry this mindset (Especially older generations - and remember NZ has an ageing population). What I consider to be racist, people of my parents and grandparents generation don't. And many people hold views that they wouldn't reveal out loud because they are (only now) considered racist.




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