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  Reply # 855876 15-Jul-2013 14:35
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6FIEND:
My grandmother faced exactly the same situation when her husband died.  Except in her case it was being a single Dutch mother instead of a single Maori mother.


How "exactly the same" were the circumstances? Did you grandmother have a steady job, large deposit, good credit history?

Did she hold NZ permanent residency? citizenship?

People get turned down on loan applications all the time.  Does that mean that any Maori who is declined a credit application is automatically a victim of racism?  Honestly?


Did you even finish reading the paragraph? Your comments are out of context.

No one is asserting that any loan decline by Maori is down to racism! Elpie clearly laid out the circumstances and it seems clear that race was likely the determining factor. Ceteris paribus, had she been white - it seems likely she would have got a loan (Large deposit, steady job, good credit history are pretty much the three key criteria from a financial risk perspective).




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  Reply # 855906 15-Jul-2013 15:15
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ajobbins:
6FIEND:
My grandmother faced exactly the same situation when her husband died.  Except in her case it was being a single Dutch mother instead of a single Maori mother.


How "exactly the same" were the circumstances? Did you grandmother have a steady job, large deposit, good credit history?

Did she hold NZ permanent residency? citizenship?

People get turned down on loan applications all the time.  Does that mean that any Maori who is declined a credit application is automatically a victim of racism?  Honestly?


Did you even finish reading the paragraph? Your comments are out of context.

No one is asserting that any loan decline by Maori is down to racism! Elpie clearly laid out the circumstances and it seems clear that race was likely the determining factor. Ceteris paribus, had she been white - it seems likely she would have got a loan (Large deposit, steady job, good credit history are pretty much the three key criteria from a financial risk perspective).




What Elpie says and what actually happened, might be two different things.


We do not know Elpie's actual personal information, credit rating or sum that was wanting to be borrowed.
We have not heard the banks side of the story.
All we have heard is Elpie's version that may or may not be correct.

We have not seen any proof either that the bank was judging on race.



I myself have saved hard, good credit too etc, yet have found it hard to get a loan (NZ European).

Got it in the end, but required significant work and dealing with the banks.



I'm quite sure that going to the bank and getting large loans is not a walk in the park (unless you are rich perhaps).

Just because someone has been declined, does not mean that it has anything to do with culture. It also doesn't mean that the complainant can just whip out the race card either as a reason why they have been declined.

As it happens, banks want to lend money as they make profit on it. Being sure the borrower can pay it back is their priority.








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  Reply # 855950 15-Jul-2013 16:17
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ajobbins:
6FIEND:
My grandmother faced exactly the same situation when her husband died.  Except in her case it was being a single Dutch mother instead of a single Maori mother.


How "exactly the same" were the circumstances? Did you grandmother have a steady job, large deposit, good credit history?

Did she hold NZ permanent residency? citizenship?


Yes.  Steady job, Large Deposit, Good credit history, NZ citizen.
The problem was sexism.  Women were expected to have a man to provide for them.  The notion of a woman supporting her family herself was certainly not deemed "bank-able".

...but I'm sure nothing like that factored into Elpie's case.  It must have been racism. 

ajobbins:
People get turned down on loan applications all the time.  Does that mean that any Maori who is declined a credit application is automatically a victim of racism?  Honestly?


Did you even finish reading the paragraph? Your comments are out of context.

No one is asserting that any loan decline by Maori is down to racism! Elpie clearly laid out the circumstances and it seems clear that race was likely the determining factor. Ceteris paribus, had she been white - it seems likely she would have got a loan (Large deposit, steady job, good credit history are pretty much the three key criteria from a financial risk perspective).


No, you are missing the wider context.
(Which was the Mana party housing policy (which spawned the Pakeha Party Facebook page) and its correlation to the Maori Affairs Housing Scheme that Elpie was endorsing.)

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/8820466/Mana-wants-low-interest-loans-for-Maori


Only Maori first-home buyers would be eligible, he said.

It would be run through Te Puni Korkiri to "cut out banks and their mean-spirited attitude to Maori".

No deposit would be needed and low interest rates would be charged.


Which is a nice little sub-prime mortgage crisis in the waiting.  (But hey, at least I was wrong about the policy 'forcing' private companies or individuals to wear the risk - it's only the taxpayers who will be paying the bill.)

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  Reply # 856029 15-Jul-2013 17:59
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6FIEND: Which is a nice little sub-prime mortgage crisis in the waiting.

Not really. These types of schemes in NZ for Maori and Pakeha were very successful in general and formed a strong foundation for the level of home ownership and prosperity we enjoy today. Lending criteria were not loose by any means.

The U.S sub-prime lending crisis was due to a bizarre number of factors including lending models which assumed a continuous and uninterrupted rise in value in the face of all common sense.

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  Reply # 856032 15-Jul-2013 18:01
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6FIEND: Yes.  Steady job, Large Deposit, Good credit history, NZ citizen.
The problem was sexism.  Women were expected to have a man to provide for them.  The notion of a woman supporting her family herself was certainly not deemed "bank-able".

...but I'm sure nothing like that factored into Elpie's case.  It must have been racism.


That is a fair point - and sexism and racism are quite similar in respect of this comment.

To this day, women are statistically more disadvantages than men. And Maori more so than NZ Europeans.

I imagine in Elpie's case, both were a factor - but in both hers and your grandmothers case, these were unspoken barriers that we will never know for sure.

But this is exactly what "White Privilege" (Or indeed "Male Priviledge") is. It's the (often unspoken) prejudices that change outcomes for members of those groups, regardless of 'how hard they try' or 'how good they are'.

New Zealand has a huge amount of equality (in law) these days, yet we still see RADICAL differences amount certain groups. Is that the result of members of those groups (on the whole) not 'trying as hard' as those of the groups with have better stats, or is it the result of those who do better holding a 'privilege' over those who have historically enjoyed less rights than they have. I strongly believe the latter.

Equality is good and nice (but in this and many cases, equity is better). The problem with equality in law is that it doesn't always change peoples attitudes (Certainly not in the short term anyway). Over time, things will likely improve - but the point of policy such as this (the one that spawned this party and subsequently this thread) is it aims to 'correct' the disadvantage those people suffer as a result of society's attitude towards them.

Is it the perfect solution? No. But it often achieves a goal (At a macro level) at the best 'bang for buck'.

Do I agree with the particular policy that spawned this party? No I don't. Do I agree with the TYPE of policy (When done right). Yes. It benefits us all as New Zealanders.




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  Reply # 856047 15-Jul-2013 18:39
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PaulBags:
driller2000: man so many of you need to read about our history so you can at least comment from an informed position


I really don't care what happened to a bunch of dead people, I care what's happening now. The past happened, you can't change what happened so you really can't fix it. But you can change how you act now. Some seem to think discriminating now is ok because of past discrimination. I don't, I don't think discrimination is ok period. You can if you want, but I will never, ever, understand why.


This has to be the most idiotic proposition I have ever seen.

You shouldn't participate in discussions like this if you don't know and understand the history.

Many here are coming from positions where perception, rather than fact, is informing their view, but I don't know if I've seen anyone else revel in their ignorance as much as you. 

I am guessing your intention is to troll, because otherwise I don't even...




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  Reply # 856054 15-Jul-2013 18:51
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NZCrusader:
ajobbins:
6FIEND:
My grandmother faced exactly the same situation when her husband died.  Except in her case it was being a single Dutch mother instead of a single Maori mother.


How "exactly the same" were the circumstances? Did you grandmother have a steady job, large deposit, good credit history?

Did she hold NZ permanent residency? citizenship?

People get turned down on loan applications all the time.  Does that mean that any Maori who is declined a credit application is automatically a victim of racism?  Honestly?


Did you even finish reading the paragraph? Your comments are out of context.

No one is asserting that any loan decline by Maori is down to racism! Elpie clearly laid out the circumstances and it seems clear that race was likely the determining factor. Ceteris paribus, had she been white - it seems likely she would have got a loan (Large deposit, steady job, good credit history are pretty much the three key criteria from a financial risk perspective).


What Elpie says and what actually happened, might be two different things.

We do not know Elpie's actual personal information, credit rating or sum that was wanting to be borrowed.
We have not heard the banks side of the story.
All we have heard is Elpie's version that may or may not be correct.

We have not seen any proof either that the bank was judging on race.



My credit rating and work history were top notch - couldn't have been better. The property I first applied for required 60% funding from the bank. I had 40% of the purchase price as well as being able to cover the legal fees. Even though this was the last year of the Maori Affairs home lending scheme property prices in Auckland weren't low. I was coming into that market with way more than the average first home buyer. 

The banks concerns came down to their expressed beliefs that Maori women were not a good credit risk, that my savings and work history were irrelevant because I was statistically more likely to go on a benefit and, as one bank told me, in their opinion Maori had a poor work ethic. Those were all assumptions based on race and not on my personal history. 

There was no difference in fees or interest between the Maori Affairs loan and ordinary bank mortgages. The only difference was the Maori Affairs looked at my personal circumstances and ability to service the loan without making assumptions that my ethnicity would lead to failure. 

Having had a home and mortgage, and retaining an excellent work and credit history, I never had a problem up-sizing my home or refinancing. That initial Maori Affairs home loan was key to that and I will be forever grateful that it had been available to me. If the Mana Party proposal came to fruition and such a scheme was operated in the same way as the Maori Affairs loan it would be cost-neutral to taxpayers. For this reason, I support it. 

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  Reply # 856104 15-Jul-2013 20:07
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My parents faced a similar uphill battle against prejudice trying to get their first home loan.




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  Reply # 856144 15-Jul-2013 21:22
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ajobbins: The problem with equality in law is that it doesn't always change peoples attitudes (Certainly not in the short term anyway). Over time, things will likely improve - but the point of policy such as this (the one that spawned this party and subsequently this thread) is it aims to 'correct' the disadvantage those people suffer as a result of society's attitude towards them.


Right, and what do you think inequality and blaming white people for everything does for my attitude? When do you correct the disadvantage of attitudes like yours?

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  Reply # 856157 15-Jul-2013 22:04
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PaulBags: Right, and what do you think inequality and blaming white people for everything does for my attitude? When do you correct the disadvantage of attitudes like yours?


What inequality? What disadvantage?





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  Reply # 856173 15-Jul-2013 23:05
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PaulBags:
ajobbins: The problem with equality in law is that it doesn't always change peoples attitudes (Certainly not in the short term anyway). Over time, things will likely improve - but the point of policy such as this (the one that spawned this party and subsequently this thread) is it aims to 'correct' the disadvantage those people suffer as a result of society's attitude towards them.


Right, and what do you think inequality and blaming white people for everything does for my attitude? When do you correct the disadvantage of attitudes like yours?


Ah, I see, you feel personally affronted because you misattribute the substance of what is being said. You do realise that's because you don't know the first thing about the history right?




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  Reply # 856258 16-Jul-2013 09:28
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/checks in a few days later

This has degenerated to what i thought it would.

FWIW I abhorr what happened to you Elpie - its disgusting how you were treated - and I am a career banker!

Personally I do not think that it would happen in this day and age but I can see why you support this.

Cheers




 


The force is strong with this one!

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  Reply # 856264 16-Jul-2013 09:38
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ajobbins:
What inequality? What disadvantage?


That's a lovely little pictogram that tugs at the heartstrings, but is a completely flawed analogy for "life"...

1) Life is not about "seeing over the top of the fence", it's about getting the best view possible.  (If we regulate away 'success' in life by ensuring "equality of outcome" then we kill ambition, we suffocate talent, and ultimately we make life harder for everyone because without individual or cooperative success, we would miss out on the jobs that the entrepreneurs create (among many other good things).

2) The height of the characters is representative of their effort, skill, and opportunity.  Not an inherent physical trait.  (Unless you're actually buying into the argument that a particular race is neurologically or physiologically or sociologically inferior to any other other)  So the solution represents punishing the person on the left who has strived to become successful by removing a fair portion of what he has achieved.  All with the effect of reducing him to the same level of success as the least industrious and most indolent individual.

3) The solution does nothing to help the under-achiever except for providing 9 innings of an artificial feel-good experience.   After the game, he's still just as un-skilled, unproductive and utterly non-self-reliant as he was before.   (And once the successful individual gets thoroughly sick of the fruits of his labour being taken from him and decides to buy a seat in the grandstand for the next game, the under-achievers are no better able to help themselves than they were beforehand.)

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  Reply # 856271 16-Jul-2013 09:49
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ajobbins:
PaulBags: Right, and what do you think inequality and blaming white people for everything does for my attitude? When do you correct the disadvantage of attitudes like yours?


What inequality? What disadvantage?


I see the point that you are trying to make with this twee graphic.  However the reality of positive discrimination would mean that this picture would not show the people side by side having the same use, it would show the tallest person at the back of the queue with the other two in front of him in order of size blocking each other view to the point that the only person with a clear view is the shortest.

Perhaps this was a poor choice of graphic as they are all free-loaders who have no right to see the game anyway because they have not paid their dues.  Draw whatever inference you like from that statement.




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  Reply # 857466 16-Jul-2013 15:43
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Elpie:
NZCrusader:
ajobbins:
6FIEND:
My grandmother faced exactly the same situation when her husband died.  Except in her case it was being a single Dutch mother instead of a single Maori mother.


How "exactly the same" were the circumstances? Did you grandmother have a steady job, large deposit, good credit history?

Did she hold NZ permanent residency? citizenship?

People get turned down on loan applications all the time.  Does that mean that any Maori who is declined a credit application is automatically a victim of racism?  Honestly?


Did you even finish reading the paragraph? Your comments are out of context.

No one is asserting that any loan decline by Maori is down to racism! Elpie clearly laid out the circumstances and it seems clear that race was likely the determining factor. Ceteris paribus, had she been white - it seems likely she would have got a loan (Large deposit, steady job, good credit history are pretty much the three key criteria from a financial risk perspective).


What Elpie says and what actually happened, might be two different things.

We do not know Elpie's actual personal information, credit rating or sum that was wanting to be borrowed.
We have not heard the banks side of the story.
All we have heard is Elpie's version that may or may not be correct.

We have not seen any proof either that the bank was judging on race.



My credit rating and work history were top notch - couldn't have been better. The property I first applied for required 60% funding from the bank. I had 40% of the purchase price as well as being able to cover the legal fees. Even though this was the last year of the Maori Affairs home lending scheme property prices in Auckland weren't low. I was coming into that market with way more than the average first home buyer. 

The banks concerns came down to their expressed beliefs that Maori women were not a good credit risk, that my savings and work history were irrelevant because I was statistically more likely to go on a benefit and, as one bank told me, in their opinion Maori had a poor work ethic. Those were all assumptions based on race and not on my personal history. 

There was no difference in fees or interest between the Maori Affairs loan and ordinary bank mortgages. The only difference was the Maori Affairs looked at my personal circumstances and ability to service the loan without making assumptions that my ethnicity would lead to failure. 

Having had a home and mortgage, and retaining an excellent work and credit history, I never had a problem up-sizing my home or refinancing. That initial Maori Affairs home loan was key to that and I will be forever grateful that it had been available to me. If the Mana Party proposal came to fruition and such a scheme was operated in the same way as the Maori Affairs loan it would be cost-neutral to taxpayers. For this reason, I support it. 


Garbage.

Which bank made a decision to not lend to a perfect candidate based on your ethnicity?

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