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  Reply # 857470 16-Jul-2013 15:48
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1080p:
Garbage.

Which bank made a decision to not lend to a perfect candidate based on your ethnicity?


Elpie: I lost out on three properties over the six months I spent having banks tell me that Maori had poor work ethics, so my work history didn't matter, that Maori women were poor risks, that I'd never be able to pay a mortgage if I "continued having children without a father" (that, from the BNZ, not bothering to look at my application and see that being left on my own was not a life-style choice). It was six months of complete demoralisation and discrimination. 


My first thought here is why Elpie did not take it further?

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  Reply # 857961 17-Jul-2013 11:27
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Klipspringer:
1080p:
Garbage.

Which bank made a decision to not lend to a perfect candidate based on your ethnicity?


Elpie: I lost out on three properties over the six months I spent having banks tell me that Maori had poor work ethics, so my work history didn't matter, that Maori women were poor risks, that I'd never be able to pay a mortgage if I "continued having children without a father" (that, from the BNZ, not bothering to look at my application and see that being left on my own was not a life-style choice). It was six months of complete demoralisation and discrimination. 


My first thought here is why Elpie did not take it further?


I'm sure her reasons are her own. I fail to see the relevance of the question, unless your question is yet another attempt to discredit her experience in order to maintain your own beliefs?

Frankly I find the behaviour of some members here toward a trusted member of our community quite abhorrent.




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  Reply # 857965 17-Jul-2013 11:33
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NZtechfreak:
I'm sure her reasons are her own. I fail to see the relevance of the question, unless your question is yet another attempt to discredit her experience in order to maintain your own beliefs?

Frankly I find the behaviour of some members here toward a trusted member of our community quite abhorrent.


Actually it seems to me that she has been a victim of blatant racism by BNZ (or are you disagreeing)?

I fail to understand your point? I'm not trying to discredit her. Just curious as to why it was not reported.






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  Reply # 857977 17-Jul-2013 11:49
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Klipspringer:
NZtechfreak:
I'm sure her reasons are her own. I fail to see the relevance of the question, unless your question is yet another attempt to discredit her experience in order to maintain your own beliefs?

Frankly I find the behaviour of some members here toward a trusted member of our community quite abhorrent.


Actually it seems to me that she has been a victim of blatant racism by BNZ (or are you disagreeing)?

I fail to understand your point? I'm not trying to discredit her. Just curious as to why it was not reported.



Fair enough.

I read your post after reading a number of posts from users who appear so caught up in vociferously arguing the thread that they have mistreated a fellow community member in the process, a trusted one at that, relaying her own experience of discrimination. Apologies for tarring you with that brush.




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  Reply # 857981 17-Jul-2013 12:02
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1080p:
Elpie:
NZCrusader:
ajobbins:
6FIEND:
My grandmother faced exactly the same situation when her husband died.  Except in her case it was being a single Dutch mother instead of a single Maori mother.


How "exactly the same" were the circumstances? Did you grandmother have a steady job, large deposit, good credit history?

Did she hold NZ permanent residency? citizenship?

People get turned down on loan applications all the time.  Does that mean that any Maori who is declined a credit application is automatically a victim of racism?  Honestly?


Did you even finish reading the paragraph? Your comments are out of context.

No one is asserting that any loan decline by Maori is down to racism! Elpie clearly laid out the circumstances and it seems clear that race was likely the determining factor. Ceteris paribus, had she been white - it seems likely she would have got a loan (Large deposit, steady job, good credit history are pretty much the three key criteria from a financial risk perspective).


What Elpie says and what actually happened, might be two different things.

We do not know Elpie's actual personal information, credit rating or sum that was wanting to be borrowed.
We have not heard the banks side of the story.
All we have heard is Elpie's version that may or may not be correct.

We have not seen any proof either that the bank was judging on race.



My credit rating and work history were top notch - couldn't have been better. The property I first applied for required 60% funding from the bank. I had 40% of the purchase price as well as being able to cover the legal fees. Even though this was the last year of the Maori Affairs home lending scheme property prices in Auckland weren't low. I was coming into that market with way more than the average first home buyer. 

The banks concerns came down to their expressed beliefs that Maori women were not a good credit risk, that my savings and work history were irrelevant because I was statistically more likely to go on a benefit and, as one bank told me, in their opinion Maori had a poor work ethic. Those were all assumptions based on race and not on my personal history. 

There was no difference in fees or interest between the Maori Affairs loan and ordinary bank mortgages. The only difference was the Maori Affairs looked at my personal circumstances and ability to service the loan without making assumptions that my ethnicity would lead to failure. 

Having had a home and mortgage, and retaining an excellent work and credit history, I never had a problem up-sizing my home or refinancing. That initial Maori Affairs home loan was key to that and I will be forever grateful that it had been available to me. If the Mana Party proposal came to fruition and such a scheme was operated in the same way as the Maori Affairs loan it would be cost-neutral to taxpayers. For this reason, I support it. 


Garbage.

Which bank made a decision to not lend to a perfect candidate based on your ethnicity?


Interestingly enough was Elpie a "perfect candidate"? 

credit rating and work history are obviously supporting/detracting points but fundamentally all banks criteria comes down to debt serviceability and security/equity.

Elpie states that equity wasnt an issue but no mention is made of affordability?

There may be a variety of concerns about ability to service debt that the bank is unable to bring up directly such as age, circumstances but fundamentally if equity and serviceability are there then banks are unable to decline proposed lending outright.

Conversely if either of the above are marginal then banks generally THEN look at work history, credit rating etc as mitigants to not meeting policy.

FWIW my targets are that aggressive Id lend money to a pink alien provided he met policy!





 


The force is strong with this one!

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  Reply # 858133 17-Jul-2013 16:21
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Klipspringer:
NZtechfreak:
I'm sure her reasons are her own. I fail to see the relevance of the question, unless your question is yet another attempt to discredit her experience in order to maintain your own beliefs?

Frankly I find the behaviour of some members here toward a trusted member of our community quite abhorrent.


Actually it seems to me that she has been a victim of blatant racism by BNZ (or are you disagreeing)?

I fail to understand your point? I'm not trying to discredit her. Just curious as to why it was not reported.


I didn't say I didn't report or take it further ;)  I didn't get anywhere though. Institutional racism/discrimination wasn't uncommon back in the late '80's. It's uncommon now, with the largest companies at least. 

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  Reply # 858141 17-Jul-2013 16:32
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rossmnz: 
Interestingly enough was Elpie a "perfect candidate"? 

credit rating and work history are obviously supporting/detracting points but fundamentally all banks criteria comes down to debt serviceability and security/equity.

Elpie states that equity wasnt an issue but no mention is made of affordability?

There may be a variety of concerns about ability to service debt that the bank is unable to bring up directly such as age, circumstances but fundamentally if equity and serviceability are there then banks are unable to decline proposed lending outright.

Conversely if either of the above are marginal then banks generally THEN look at work history, credit rating etc as mitigants to not meeting policy.


Affordability wasn't an issue (and this loan happened in the days when interest rates were over the 15% mark). Serviceability wasn't an issue EXCEPT that the banks could not be convinced that I wasn't at risk of discontinuing work. I was, in those days, a corporate accountant. The odds were stacked against me, being widowed with a toddler, but to be honest I don't remember whether that was an issue or not. Sadly, disparaging comments made about race are the ones that stuck with me forever. 

Banks are much more competitive now and the world has changed somewhat but people taking applications for home loans are only human and prejudices still remain. I've worked in companies that see Maori as high risk for their particular businesses. Unfortunately, they were not always wrong. What is wrong is not treating individuals equally and not providing an even playing field. 



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  Reply # 858583 18-Jul-2013 12:49
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Elpie: What is wrong is not treating individuals equally and not providing an even playing field. 




I wholeheartedly agree!  :-)

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  Reply # 859603 18-Jul-2013 13:51
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6FIEND:
Elpie: What is wrong is not treating individuals equally and not providing an even playing field. 




I wholeheartedly agree!  :-)


+1




Procrastination eventually pays off.


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