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3372 posts

Uber Geek
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  Reply # 851395 9-Jul-2013 10:58
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my 2cents, completely disagree with any race/gender/sexuality based laws/benefits/whatever.

if you're a NZ citizen (doesn't matter if your maori, nz european, Indian whose been here for 2 years), as long as your a NZ citizen, you should be entitled to the same things based on YOUR situation.

this goes for free health care, free study options, ability to marry, everything should be equal.

anything else is just bigotry.

we're a nation, doesn't matter where we came from, how long we've been here. It shouldn't matter if we were lucky or unlucky to be born with a certain colour skin or not. If we are equals, none of this should matter.

so I'm against the Pakeha party I think its racist
I'm also against the Maori and Mana party for the same reason.

I'm all for support people who are in need for that support, but that shouldn't be automatic, it should be on a case by case basis.

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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 851397 9-Jul-2013 11:00
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Wow, six pages and nobody pointed out that this party has chosen to use a Maori word to describe themselves.

I think this is a great example of how integrated New Zealand has actually become. Both that this party decided to call themselves the Pakeha Party (not the New Zealanders of European/English/non-Maori descent Party) and that nobody even noticed!

Our similarity is our diversity.

When it comes to politics; one person, one vote and everybody gets to stand. This includes people we don't agree with or like.

When it comes to the rest do whatever you want. We have hockey teams for Indians, we have rugby teams for Maori, we have Chinese New Year. We should celebrate this.

Sure, Maori are going to get a special place in the culture as they are unique to New Zealand. But so what? Chinese New Zealanders are also unique to New Zealand.




Didn't anybody tell you I was a hacker?

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Vocus

  Reply # 851398 9-Jul-2013 11:02
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It is not about "same benefits for everyone" it is about trying to level the playing field.

Do you think you've ever been turned down for a job or a loan because of the colour of your skin?  Because people carry judgements around with them and this happens to Maori, Polynesians, all minorities around the world, every day.  

It's not easy to fix this, sure there are anti-discrimination laws, but it still happens.  It's become so ingrained people do it subconsciously.  So you give people in those groups something - to help them get balance.  Slowly, it addresses the discrimination issue as seeing people of eg. a certain race doing well becomes normalised.  The mindset changes.  That's the long term goal of these kind of policies.

The point is that Majority groups, (and also males in our culture, but that's a whole other can of worms) have an automatic advantage, whether they recognise it or not, and don't need advantages legislated for them to get by.

Now it's not that the poor don't need help, of course they do, and Immigrants should be treated fairly as well, but that's not the issue here.  The founding principle of "the Pakeha party" is "Hey, Maori get these benefits and WE WHITE PEOPLE SHOULD TOO".  It's wrong minded.  There is no need to champion for the rights of a group who already have the upper hand.  It's like stealing from the poor and giving to the rich.

I just wish people would look harder to recognise and acknowledge what has been handed to them on account of who they are, before trying to grab at everything on account of some skewed sense of entitlement.  It's comfortable to think it's just hard work, and "merit", that's got you where you are, and that is a part of it, but there is far more going on than that.  You only have to look at the balance in positions of power in our society (Governments, upper management, high-paying jobs and so on) for evidence of this.

And that's it for me on this thread.  Aroha, everyone.

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 851400 9-Jul-2013 11:03
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KiwiNZ:
NonprayingMantis:
Maori is not a nationality.


*sigh*

unbelievable



KiwiNZ:
spearsniper: Nationality is not race.

We are all New Zealanders, so why not just have a New Zealand team.




aaahh that old colonial policy. Maori should give up their identity, deny their heritage and culture. Sorry but the world has moved on.



Hei wakaritenga mai hoki mo te wakaaetanga ki te Kawanatanga o te Kuini.
Ka tiakina e te Kuini o Ingarani nga tangata Maori katoa o Nu Turani.  Ka tukua ki a ratou nga tikanga katoa rita tahi ki ana mea ki nga tangata o Ingarani.

This too is an arrangement in return for the assent of Governorship of the Queen.
The Queen of England will protect all the native men of New Zealand.  She yields to them all the rights, one and the same as her doings to the men of England.

This was not "that old colonial policy"...  This was precisely what the Ngapuhi chiefs pleaded for!  They spent over a decade trying to convince the British to establish a system of government in NZ that would provide protection and equal rights for New Zealanders.  It is for precisely these benefits that they (and the vast majority of all other Maori Chiefs) ceeded governership of NZ to Queen Victoria.

It is disingenuous to suggest that this is about denying heritage & culture.  This is about two people coming together as one nation, under one rule of law, with equal rights for all.  He iwi tahi tatou.



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  Reply # 851403 9-Jul-2013 11:06
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KiwiNZ: as a group Maori have been identified as a group most in need therefore targeted packages to address that need is prudent and affective. When adding targeted packages other wider assistance is not affected. After all with say targeted Maori housing assistance social housing provided by central government or local bodies is not affected. When the need has been meet then the packages can be removed. Similar to the assistance packages provided to returning servicemen post WW1 and WW2.


As soon as you start insisting that those in need are from just one demographic group or race or nationality you are detracting yourself from what should be the goal of helping all in need. (not just maori).

Its discrimination.

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  Reply # 851409 9-Jul-2013 11:11
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6FIEND:
KiwiNZ:
NonprayingMantis:
Maori is not a nationality.


*sigh*

unbelievable



KiwiNZ:
spearsniper: Nationality is not race.

We are all New Zealanders, so why not just have a New Zealand team.




aaahh that old colonial policy. Maori should give up their identity, deny their heritage and culture. Sorry but the world has moved on.



Hei wakaritenga mai hoki mo te wakaaetanga ki te Kawanatanga o te Kuini.
Ka tiakina e te Kuini o Ingarani nga tangata Maori katoa o Nu Turani.  Ka tukua ki a ratou nga tikanga katoa rita tahi ki ana mea ki nga tangata o Ingarani.

This too is an arrangement in return for the assent of Governorship of the Queen.
The Queen of England will protect all the native men of New Zealand.  She yields to them all the rights, one and the same as her doings to the men of England.

This was not "that old colonial policy"...  This was precisely what the Ngapuhi chiefs pleaded for!  They spent over a decade trying to convince the British to establish a system of government in NZ that would provide protection and equal rights for New Zealanders.  It is for precisely these benefits that they (and the vast majority of all other Maori Chiefs) ceeded governership of NZ to Queen Victoria.

It is disingenuous to suggest that this is about denying heritage & culture.  This is about two people coming together as one nation, under one rule of law, with equal rights for all.  He iwi tahi tatou.


Would have been nice if kept but it wasn't and Colonial and post colonial policy resulted in the need for the Treaty Tribunal and treaty settlements. The colonial powers did a bad job here, in the Americas, Africa and Asia and left a terrible legacy to be cleaned up.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 851411 9-Jul-2013 11:13
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Klipspringer:
KiwiNZ: as a group Maori have been identified as a group most in need therefore targeted packages to address that need is prudent and affective. When adding targeted packages other wider assistance is not affected. After all with say targeted Maori housing assistance social housing provided by central government or local bodies is not affected. When the need has been meet then the packages can be removed. Similar to the assistance packages provided to returning servicemen post WW1 and WW2.


As soon as you start insisting that those in need are from just one demographic group or race or nationality you are detracting yourself from what should be the goal of helping all in need. (not just maori).

Its discrimination.



aaaarrrrggghhh frustrated much, read my posts again,it is about temporary targeted assistance . It takes nothing from others.

Now that wall outside looks inviting .........




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


714 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 851430 9-Jul-2013 11:27
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macuser: Us white folks are born winners who forced our society on a bunch of people who were pretty happy on their own, living with their own societal ambitions and values.  I'm not really being an apologist, just the reality is that white people are far better at succeeding in white people society so we need to help those that aren't so good.

Especially the people who we forced our lifestyle upon a few hundred years ago.  You can't really just say 'well you had ages to get used to it, harden up' in some hope to breed out the Maori in them.


Absolute rubbish.

In 1831, a group of Maori Chiefs beseeched King William to colonise NZ so as to provide the security & stability of a system of law & order (as opposed to the existing state of continual inter-tribal warfare, and the impending arrival of the French invaders)

English translation of the Ngapuhi letter to King William 1831
(this is an English translation of the Ngapuhi Chiefs' letter to King William in 1831 as published in TL Buick's 1915 publication)

It took almost 10 years (including a personal visit from Hongi Hika and a change in Monarch) to convince the British to colonise NZ.

To imply that the White Man invaded this country and forced his ways apon the Maori people is simply false.  

In fact, the preamble of Te Tiriti o Waitangi expressly states that it has been borne out of consideration of their request, and is intended to provide protection for both the settlors and the Maori:
Her Majesty Victoria Queen of England in her gracious consideration for the chiefs and people of New Zealand and Her desire to preserve to them their lands and to maintain peace and order amongst them, has been pleased to appoint an officer to treat with them for the cession of the sovreignty of their country and the islands adjacent to the Queen. Seeing that many of her Majesty’s subjects have already settled in the country and are constantly arriving and that it is desirable for their protection as well as the protection of the natives, to establish a government amongst them.


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  Reply # 851483 9-Jul-2013 12:28
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KiwiNZ:
NonprayingMantis:
KiwiNZ:
NonprayingMantis:
KiwiNZ:
NonprayingMantis:
KiwiNZ:
NonprayingMantis:
KiwiNZ:
spearsniper: ^ ummm. I think you might be missing the point.
The womens teams, age based teams, and physical ability teams are all in place to allow fairness and sportmanship.
Race based teams are not.


you are missing the point, example the Scottish, Welsh have their own teams in the United Kingdom. Teams selected on nationality are present in all sports why should the Maori be singled to have their team being called inappropriate.


Maori is not a nationality.


*sigh*

unbelievable


Maori is not a nationality.  
It is an ethnicity or a race. It is not defined by national boundaries. 



ETA: But I dont really care if Maori want to have a NZ Maori team. It's hardly worth arguing over. what is important is government special privileges for poor people where the mana party specifically want to exclude poor pakeha from obtaining those privileges by making them only available to Maori.



Race is defined by borders, race is outside borders, race is a nationality and race is not a nationality. Race defines a nationality race defines more than a nationality.




What a meaningless thing to say. 


read it again it will come to you ;)



It's a trite statement that is utterly devoid of meaning.  If anything it removes the notion of what 'race' is by defining it as anything and everything. 


What is says is Race not only defines a person but it can define a Nation, It also says that race is not only defined by borders but can be beyond borders. Therefore Maori is a Nationality.





What a load of crap, there is no recognised Maori nation, you are really stretching things saying there is.

There however is a nation known as New Zealand, until we get over trying to separate based on race we will never prosper.

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  Reply # 851499 9-Jul-2013 12:53
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dickytim:
KiwiNZ:
NonprayingMantis:
KiwiNZ:
NonprayingMantis:
KiwiNZ:
NonprayingMantis:
KiwiNZ:
NonprayingMantis:
KiwiNZ:
spearsniper: ^ ummm. I think you might be missing the point.
The womens teams, age based teams, and physical ability teams are all in place to allow fairness and sportmanship.
Race based teams are not.


you are missing the point, example the Scottish, Welsh have their own teams in the United Kingdom. Teams selected on nationality are present in all sports why should the Maori be singled to have their team being called inappropriate.


Maori is not a nationality.


*sigh*

unbelievable


Maori is not a nationality.  
It is an ethnicity or a race. It is not defined by national boundaries. 



ETA: But I dont really care if Maori want to have a NZ Maori team. It's hardly worth arguing over. what is important is government special privileges for poor people where the mana party specifically want to exclude poor pakeha from obtaining those privileges by making them only available to Maori.



Race is defined by borders, race is outside borders, race is a nationality and race is not a nationality. Race defines a nationality race defines more than a nationality.




What a meaningless thing to say. 


read it again it will come to you ;)



It's a trite statement that is utterly devoid of meaning.  If anything it removes the notion of what 'race' is by defining it as anything and everything. 


What is says is Race not only defines a person but it can define a Nation, It also says that race is not only defined by borders but can be beyond borders. Therefore Maori is a Nationality.





What a load of crap, there is no recognised Maori nation, you are really stretching things saying there is.

There however is a nation known as New Zealand, until we get over trying to separate based on race we will never prosper.


I didn't say they were. My post was a generic referral to race in general




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


646 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 851533 9-Jul-2013 13:26
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This is great news.

Will vote for this party.


Sorry Nats & JK, things were going so well, but you don't take a stand against the inequity.





NZ / AU Battlefield 4 Gaming Community
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Geek
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  Reply # 851578 9-Jul-2013 14:22
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Did the Maori not eat the Moriori? So as such it was NOT originally inhabited by the Maori- they took it from someone else- can anyone PLEASE tell me who is left from the Moriori and i will happily help them make a claim against Maori for the settlement they have gotten from the Crown as it is like for like is it not?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moriori_people

"These people lived by a code of non-violence and passive resistance (see Nunuku-whenua), which made it easier for Taranaki Maori invaders to nearly exterminate them in the 1830s."

So where the truck is there compensation for extermination

6434 posts

Uber Geek
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  Reply # 851596 9-Jul-2013 14:29
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pretty sure the UK has been invaded by France many times, as well as the vikings. So no doubt one of my distant ancestors got robbed or raped by a frenchman or a scandinavian. I demand compensation!

382 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 851612 9-Jul-2013 14:48
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KiwiNZ: 
What is says is Race not only defines a person but it can define a Nation, It also says that race is not only defined by borders but can be beyond borders. Therefore Maori is a Nationality.

I happened to look up "Nationality" a few days ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationality

Nationality is the legal relationship between a person and a nation state.[1]

Nationality affords the state jurisdiction over the person and affords the person the protection of the state.

In English, the same word is used in the sense of an ethnic group (a group of people who share a common ethnic identity, language, culture, descent, history, and so forth). This meaning of nationality is not defined by political borders or passportownership and includes nations that lack an independent state (such as the Scots,WelshEnglishBasquesKurdsTamilsHmongInuit and Maori).

382 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 851631 9-Jul-2013 14:56
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FWIW Don Brash made the point about abolition of race-based initiatives and replacing with need-based initiatives at the Orewa speech.

...

The difficult is how do we capture who needs the help and who doesnt?  Many Asians, whites and Polynesians are also equally disadvantaged and this is the crux of the matter - they do not qualify under race-based initiatives.

Don Brash was brave to break the ice.

I recall in the states, some universities put limit on number of asian kids they take because they score higher than some other ethnicity groups. Some call it diversity, some call it racism.

Edit: I think there is a fine line and no one ever gets it "right"...

I wish the country can move on as one, after all treaty settlement resolved.

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