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  Reply # 851641 9-Jul-2013 15:07
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hangon:
KiwiNZ: 
What is says is Race not only defines a person but it can define a Nation, It also says that race is not only defined by borders but can be beyond borders. Therefore Maori is a Nationality.

I happened to look up "Nationality" a few days ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationality

Nationality is the legal relationship between a person and a nation state.[1]

Nationality affords the state jurisdiction over the person and affords the person the protection of the state.

In English, the same word is used in the sense of an ethnic group (a group of people who share a common ethnic identity, language, culture, descent, history, and so forth). This meaning of nationality is not defined by political borders or passportownership and includes nations that lack an independent state (such as the Scots,WelshEnglishBasquesKurdsTamilsHmongInuit and Maori).


that says what I was saying




Mike
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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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  Reply # 851675 9-Jul-2013 15:57
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ubergeeknz: It is not about "same benefits for everyone" it is about trying to level the playing field.

Do you think you've ever been turned down for a job or a loan because of the colour of your skin?  Because people carry judgements around with them and this happens to Maori, Polynesians, all minorities around the world, every day.  

It's not easy to fix this, sure there are anti-discrimination laws, but it still happens.  It's become so ingrained people do it subconsciously.  So you give people in those groups something - to help them get balance.  Slowly, it addresses the discrimination issue as seeing people of eg. a certain race doing well becomes normalised.  The mindset changes.  That's the long term goal of these kind of policies.

The point is that Majority groups, (and also males in our culture, but that's a whole other can of worms) have an automatic advantage, whether they recognise it or not, and don't need advantages legislated for them to get by.

Now it's not that the poor don't need help, of course they do, and Immigrants should be treated fairly as well, but that's not the issue here.  The founding principle of "the Pakeha party" is "Hey, Maori get these benefits and WE WHITE PEOPLE SHOULD TOO".  It's wrong minded.  There is no need to champion for the rights of a group who already have the upper hand.  It's like stealing from the poor and giving to the rich.

I just wish people would look harder to recognise and acknowledge what has been handed to them on account of who they are, before trying to grab at everything on account of some skewed sense of entitlement.  It's comfortable to think it's just hard work, and "merit", that's got you where you are, and that is a part of it, but there is far more going on than that.  You only have to look at the balance in positions of power in our society (Governments, upper management, high-paying jobs and so on) for evidence of this.

And that's it for me on this thread.  Aroha, everyone.


You seem to have overlooked the fact that an argument from 'privilege' is pure garbage. There is no automatic privilege given to males or majority groups in a society. The entire concept is an amorphous generalisation that holds not water when examined.

I haven't seen one piece of apples to apples data that describes this "upper hand" or "automatic leg up" because every person is in a different situation. It is literally impossible to say that a particular group has an automatic advantage when that group is made up from people with wildly differing circumstances.

What can be said is that certain people - regardless of the 'group' they belong to - experience circumstances that leave them at a disadvantage compared to others.

What is being said when 'white' people demand the same rights as minorities (or rather that minorities not be given additional rights) is not that they want equality but recognition that disadvantage is indiscriminate when it comes to race, gender, etc...

 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 851702 9-Jul-2013 16:27
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KiwiNZ: 

aaaarrrrggghhh frustrated much, read my posts again,it is about temporary targeted assistance . It takes nothing from others.

Now that wall outside looks inviting .........


If we have a group of people and give some money to a  10% subset of the group -- have we not taken from the other 90% to do this?

And, temporary assistance quickly becomes a perceived right and an expectation of permanency quickly develops. This is proven by those who are lifetime state house tenants. 

I don't get how you think giving to some does not take away from others. 


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  Reply # 851705 9-Jul-2013 16:37
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surfisup1000:
KiwiNZ: 

aaaarrrrggghhh frustrated much, read my posts again,it is about temporary targeted assistance . It takes nothing from others.

Now that wall outside looks inviting .........


If we have a group of people and give some money to a  10% subset of the group -- have we not taken from the other 90% to do this?

And, temporary assistance quickly becomes a perceived right and an expectation of permanency quickly develops. This is proven by those who are lifetime state house tenants. 

I don't get how you think giving to some does not take away from others. 



I did not say that giving to some does not take from others. If you check I was saying that targeted assistance addresses the most in need. When one has limited resources as New Zealand then yes some will have to wait. If we try to address all at the same time we will end in a 'Greece" senario.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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  Reply # 851706 9-Jul-2013 16:39
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a phrase I heard John Tamihere use a few years back springs to mind reading some of this " funding poverty"




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  Reply # 851810 9-Jul-2013 18:23
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1080p: disadvantage is indiscriminate when it comes to race, gender, etc...


So how to explain the statistical evidence, if as you say, disadvantage is indiscriminate.  Coincidence I guess.

"Maori over-represented in high-risk households Nearly 43 percent of households in the high-risk group had a Maori respondent,
compared with 8 percent in the no-risk group. Figure 5 shows the proportion of
respondents selecting Maori ethnicity in each risk group. The graph shows the ethnicity of
the respondent, not the ethnicity of the entire household."

http://www.stats.govt.nz/browse_for_stats/people_and_communities/Children/vulnerable-children.aspx

"Youth NEET (not in employment, education, or training) rate highest for Maori

Table 2 shows the labour force and education status of youth by ethnic group (using total response, unadjusted data). A larger proportion of Maori youth were NEET in the September 2011 quarter when compared with other ethnic groups (22.2 percent of all Maori aged 15–24 years). Young Pacific peoples had the second-highest NEET rate at 17.6 percent.

Since the introduction of the new ethnicity measures to the HLFS in the December 2007 quarter, Maori youth have consistently had higher NEET rates than European, Pacific, and Asian youth. "

http://www.stats.govt.nz/browse_for_stats/income-and-work/employment_and_unemployment/NEET-paper.aspx

Just this whole article

http://www.stats.govt.nz/browse_for_stats/people_and_communities/asian-peoples/racial-discrimination-in-nz.aspx

"Ethnic minorities live in the most crowded housing"

http://www.stats.govt.nz/browse_for_stats/people_and_communities/housing/ethnicity-crowding-1986-2006.aspx

Note that in ALL of these, "NZ European" come out on top, as a group.

If you can find a study where NZ Europeans do not do better, as a group, than Maori or any other ethnicity then I'd love to see it.  

Until then I will stand by my conviction that, whether you call it Privilege or not, being a white NZer is just easier and we don't exist in a level playing field.




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  Reply # 851901 9-Jul-2013 19:58
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The Civilian newspaper has just published an in-depth article analysing the details of Pakeha Party's policies. Judge them for yourself: http://www.thecivilian.co.nz/whats-in-the-pakeha-party-platform

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  Reply # 851942 9-Jul-2013 20:44
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NonprayingMantis: pretty sure the UK has been invaded by France many times, as well as the vikings. So no doubt one of my distant ancestors got robbed or raped by a frenchman or a scandinavian. I demand compensation!



Actually it was our ancestors that invaded France many times.

Normans (granted Normandy by the French king after the Normans invaded it, as they became a vassal) and later the English who captured most of France.

The Scandinavian people did attack the UK though many times, back before and during the Norman invasion.

French & Spanish did try to attack the UK later in the 18th century, but was defeated by Lord Nelson.



The French have always been second best to us at warfare.




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  Reply # 852126 10-Jul-2013 06:48
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coldstone: Did the Maori not eat the Moriori? So as such it was NOT originally inhabited by the Maori- they took it from someone else- can anyone PLEASE tell me who is left from the Moriori and i will happily help them make a claim against Maori for the settlement they have gotten from the Crown as it is like for like is it not?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moriori_people

"These people lived by a code of non-violence and passive resistance (see Nunuku-whenua), which made it easier for Taranaki Maori invaders to nearly exterminate them in the 1830s."

So where the truck is there compensation for extermination


don't you mean Genocide?

Was wondering the same thing.

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  Reply # 852158 10-Jul-2013 09:09
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ubergeeknz:
1080p: disadvantage is indiscriminate when it comes to race, gender, etc...


So how to explain the statistical evidence, if as you say, disadvantage is indiscriminate.  Coincidence I guess.

"Maori over-represented in high-risk households Nearly 43 percent of households in the high-risk group had a Maori respondent,
compared with 8 percent in the no-risk group. Figure 5 shows the proportion of
respondents selecting Maori ethnicity in each risk group. The graph shows the ethnicity of
the respondent, not the ethnicity of the entire household."

http://www.stats.govt.nz/browse_for_stats/people_and_communities/Children/vulnerable-children.aspx

"Youth NEET (not in employment, education, or training) rate highest for Maori

Table 2 shows the labour force and education status of youth by ethnic group (using total response, unadjusted data). A larger proportion of Maori youth were NEET in the September 2011 quarter when compared with other ethnic groups (22.2 percent of all Maori aged 15–24 years). Young Pacific peoples had the second-highest NEET rate at 17.6 percent.

Since the introduction of the new ethnicity measures to the HLFS in the December 2007 quarter, Maori youth have consistently had higher NEET rates than European, Pacific, and Asian youth. "

http://www.stats.govt.nz/browse_for_stats/income-and-work/employment_and_unemployment/NEET-paper.aspx

Just this whole article

http://www.stats.govt.nz/browse_for_stats/people_and_communities/asian-peoples/racial-discrimination-in-nz.aspx

"Ethnic minorities live in the most crowded housing"

http://www.stats.govt.nz/browse_for_stats/people_and_communities/housing/ethnicity-crowding-1986-2006.aspx

Note that in ALL of these, "NZ European" come out on top, as a group.

If you can find a study where NZ Europeans do not do better, as a group, than Maori or any other ethnicity then I'd love to see it.  

Until then I will stand by my conviction that, whether you call it Privilege or not, being a white NZer is just easier and we don't exist in a level playing field.





I think you missed the point.

The point is that Maori figure highly in these statistics due to their socio-economic position, rather than solely due to race.

I know of many Maori who are doing very well for themselves thank you very much - academics, businesspeople etc etc. 

Yet under race-based initiative the above people qualify for help that their less-economically fortunate white/pacific/asian peers do not.  How does this benefit NZ?

To me, the problem is solely socio-economic and if Maori are over represented at the bottom of the socio-economic ladder, then helping this group will automatically help Maori the most by default, wont it?





 


The force is strong with this one!

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  Reply # 852160 10-Jul-2013 09:15
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ubergeeknz:
1080p: disadvantage is indiscriminate when it comes to race, gender, etc...


So how to explain the statistical evidence, if as you say, disadvantage is indiscriminate.  Coincidence I guess.

"Maori over-represented in high-risk households Nearly 43 percent of households in the high-risk group had a Maori respondent,
compared with 8 percent in the no-risk group. Figure 5 shows the proportion of
respondents selecting Maori ethnicity in each risk group. The graph shows the ethnicity of
the respondent, not the ethnicity of the entire household."

http://www.stats.govt.nz/browse_for_stats/people_and_communities/Children/vulnerable-children.aspx

"Youth NEET (not in employment, education, or training) rate highest for Maori

Table 2 shows the labour force and education status of youth by ethnic group (using total response, unadjusted data). A larger proportion of Maori youth were NEET in the September 2011 quarter when compared with other ethnic groups (22.2 percent of all Maori aged 15–24 years). Young Pacific peoples had the second-highest NEET rate at 17.6 percent.

Since the introduction of the new ethnicity measures to the HLFS in the December 2007 quarter, Maori youth have consistently had higher NEET rates than European, Pacific, and Asian youth. "

http://www.stats.govt.nz/browse_for_stats/income-and-work/employment_and_unemployment/NEET-paper.aspx

Just this whole article

http://www.stats.govt.nz/browse_for_stats/people_and_communities/asian-peoples/racial-discrimination-in-nz.aspx

"Ethnic minorities live in the most crowded housing"

http://www.stats.govt.nz/browse_for_stats/people_and_communities/housing/ethnicity-crowding-1986-2006.aspx

Note that in ALL of these, "NZ European" come out on top, as a group.

If you can find a study where NZ Europeans do not do better, as a group, than Maori or any other ethnicity then I'd love to see it.  

Until then I will stand by my conviction that, whether you call it Privilege or not, being a white NZer is just easier and we don't exist in a level playing field.




you are making the classic mistake of assuming that people within a group represent the group as a whole. 

There are rich maori who commit zero crimes, and there are poor white people who commit a lot of crime.


Targeting groups where they happen to be over-represented in one area or another is abstracting the problem away from the actual issue - which is poverty.  Not Maori. Just poverty.

Unless you think there is something inherent about being maori that makes them inferior (I hope not!) then this is not actually addressing the problem at it's heart.



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  Reply # 852161 10-Jul-2013 09:15
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rossmnz:I think you missed the point.

The point is that Maori figure highly in these statistics due to their socio-economic position, rather than solely due to race.

I know of many Maori who are doing very well for themselves thank you very much - academics, businesspeople etc etc. 

Yet under race-based initiative the above people qualify for help that their less-economically fortunate white/pacific/asian peers do not.  How does this benefit NZ?

To me, the problem is solely socio-economic and if Maori are over represented at the bottom of the socio-economic ladder, then helping this group will automatically help Maori the most by default, wont it?


I think YOU are missing the point.  Why are the Maori there in the first place?  If there's no racial inequity then all races should have the same representation, no?  But that is not the case.  So while some Maori have done OK answer this - how many Maori are CEOs of major corporations in this country?  How many Maori Prime Ministers have we had?

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  Reply # 852164 10-Jul-2013 09:19
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NonprayingMantis: 
Unless you think there is something inherent about being maori that makes them inferior (I hope not!) then this is not actually addressing the problem at it's heart.


It is nothing to do with being inferior.  It is about the way they are treated in society, the chances they are given by others.  AKA Racism.



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  Reply # 852177 10-Jul-2013 09:30
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rossmnz:
To me, the problem is solely socio-economic and if Maori are over represented at the bottom of the socio-economic ladder, then helping this group will automatically help Maori the most by default, wont it?


+1.
And it will not deprive those from other races who could be living in worse off poverty.
The current system is putting Maori above these people.

NonprayingMantis:
Targeting groups where they happen to be over-represented in one area or another is abstracting the problem away from the actual issue - which is poverty.  Not Maori. Just poverty.

+1

ubergeeknz:
I think YOU are missing the point.  Why are the Maori there in the first place?  If there's no racial inequity then all races should have the same representation, no?  But that is not the case.  So while some Maori have done OK answer this - how many Maori are CEOs of major corporations in this country?  How many Maori Prime Ministers have we had?


Come on. Take your race/colour shaded blinkers off, step back for a minute and stop looking at race/colour.

The best way to solve this problem is to stop grouping people by ethnic identification. Anybody can be poor, anybody can be rich, anybody can be over-represented, anybody can be under-represented. To believe that all that has to do with the color of one's skin (or a small % of maori blood in your veins) is absolute nonsense.



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  Reply # 852185 10-Jul-2013 09:47
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ubergeeknz:
1080p: disadvantage is indiscriminate when it comes to race, gender, etc...


So how to explain the statistical evidence, if as you say, disadvantage is indiscriminate.  /snip/ ..."Youth NEET (not in employment, education, or training) rate highest for Maori"


I'd consider that to be a poorly chosen statistic to use to argue your point. 

A youth not being at school or in training or at work has absolutely nothing to do with being advantaged or disadvantaged.  The public education system is an entirely free service, provided to all New Zealanders.  If a youth is not participating (and has not chosen to take a job, or other industry training instead) then the statistic is purely a measure of the demographic's own 'motivation' to get ahead.  (More specifically, a measure of the 'value' that they collectively place on education & training as a vehicle for self improvement.)

That so many of a particular ethnicity choose to "do nothing" rather than take advantage of the "free education" that is provided is absolutely something that needs to be addressed.  But it has nothing whatsoever to do with "disadvantage" ....more to do with being "disenfranchised".

That would be true whichever ethnicity is the worst represented.

So, why specifically are so many Maori youth disenfranchised?  

...possibly because they have been raised to be by disenfranchised parents.  And taught to be by the grievance industry.  And told to be by politicians from across the political spectrum who say, "Vote for me and I will give you special treatment because you can't possibly be expected to foot it with the rest of the country..." 

Possibly other reasons - I certainly am not qualified to say.  I'm just speculating.

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