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  Reply # 852186 10-Jul-2013 09:48
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It is not a hard concept one last attempt......

Group A

Very high unemployment, poor Housing, very poor health status and high hospital admission, very high prison and offending including family and other violence. Much lower life expectancy.
Current cost of Benefit payments, Hospital and other health cost, Prison and other crime cost make up a high percentage of the fiscal vote.

Group B
Less than average unemployment rates, average to better than average housing, Health status meeting WHO expectations, much lower crime and other offending. Life expectancy meeting WHO expectations.

Cost of benefit payments, health etc lower and generally short term,

Group C

Very low to zero unemployment rates and generally very short in duration and frequency, well above average housing, well above average health status, very low offending and above average life expectancy.

Very low cost to the fiscal vote.

Given that it makes absolute sense to address the problems that group A has first as the gains to the community as a whole are greater and long term, in other words more bang for your buck. Yes groups B and C may feel they are aggrieved that they are missing out, but that is misinformation and they stand to gain greater in the long term by less fiscal drain on the Government and taxation.

Fix that which is broken first improve others latter. 





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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  Reply # 852229 10-Jul-2013 10:37
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Personally I'd label it childish, not racist.

"We want what they want just because they want it! Waaaaahhh!"

In spite of that I fully support their opportunity to lobby for whatever they want.

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  Reply # 852238 10-Jul-2013 10:51
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KiwiNZ:

Group A

Very high unemployment, poor Housing, very poor health status and high hospital admission, very high prison and offending including family and other violence. Much lower life expectancy.
Current cost of Benefit payments, Hospital and other health cost, Prison and other crime cost make up a high percentage of the fiscal vote.

Fix that which is broken first improve others latter. 


You miss mental illness which causes them to end up in group A. 

I've seen nothing new in your arguments which are simply rehashing what has been said many times before and you don't propose any practical solution that would work. 



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  Reply # 853232 10-Jul-2013 11:25
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surfisup1000:
KiwiNZ:

Group A

Very high unemployment, poor Housing, very poor health status and high hospital admission, very high prison and offending including family and other violence. Much lower life expectancy.
Current cost of Benefit payments, Hospital and other health cost, Prison and other crime cost make up a high percentage of the fiscal vote.

Fix that which is broken first improve others latter. 


You miss mental illness which causes them to end up in group A. 

I've seen nothing new in your arguments which are simply rehashing what has been said many times before and you don't propose any practical solution that would work. 




Mental health comes under health in general so I did not miss it.

If I had the answers I would not be here, what is not an answer is crack pot tantrum pages which forms the subject matter for this thread.

So ideas I do have for group A are as follows....

Targeted housing assistance which allows unemployed families to move from regions of low unemployment.
Venture capital to allow groups to create start ups and thus employment creation in poorer regions.
Targeted housing assistance to reduce overcrowding in substandard housing thus improving health.
Targeted regional health initiatives
Use vacant government or Council land (eg abandoned schools) for community based food production




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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  Reply # 853257 10-Jul-2013 12:18
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KiwiNZ:
surfisup1000:
KiwiNZ:

Group A

Very high unemployment, poor Housing, very poor health status and high hospital admission, very high prison and offending including family and other violence. Much lower life expectancy.
Current cost of Benefit payments, Hospital and other health cost, Prison and other crime cost make up a high percentage of the fiscal vote.

Fix that which is broken first improve others latter. 


You miss mental illness which causes them to end up in group A. 

I've seen nothing new in your arguments which are simply rehashing what has been said many times before and you don't propose any practical solution that would work. 




Mental health comes under health in general so I did not miss it.

If I had the answers I would not be here, what is not an answer is crack pot tantrum pages which forms the subject matter for this thread.

So ideas I do have for group A are as follows....

Targeted housing assistance which allows unemployed families to move from regions of low unemployment.
Venture capital to allow groups to create start ups and thus employment creation in poorer regions.
Targeted housing assistance to reduce overcrowding in substandard housing thus improving health.
Targeted regional health initiatives
Use vacant government or Council land (eg abandoned schools) for community based food production


Suppose all this money comes from Labour and the Green's magic piggy bank?

This whole thread has missed the point and does not address the route cause of poverty in a group, which is .....

Culture.

The culture of the I Want It.

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  Reply # 853258 10-Jul-2013 12:23
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the answer is certainly not throwing money at the problem as its happening now and hasn't sorted anything. The mindset of some needs to change and instead of blaming non Maori and colonists just take ownership of it instead of holding the handout which has been condoned over the years.

I'm sure there are a few in high places on both sides of the fence that would rather not see things change as they have made a career out of it and/or it is their voter base so why fix it.

I suppose I'll open myself up here but where does all the money go that has, and still is, being given to Iwi as settlements, why isn't that being used to create employment and housing (this is an honest question here) Instead its the blame game and reliance on the government (taxpayer) coming up with more and more cash.

We should be aiming to getting people off relying on the Taxpayer but the more we pour in the more reliant they become (not just Maori) and why should they better themselves when they don't have to.

I feel angry that being Caucasian its somehow my fault and that all non Maori need to pay and put up with racial slurs and abuse when we say enough or even dare to query something Maori are doing that we perceive is wrong.

All I can say is to you people is to get real and see what the real problem is and take ownership of it, we'll do our part but at least try and help yourselves first constantly accusing and finger pointing. I realise that its not all that do this in fact its probably a minority so i apologize to those that actually understand the problem and possible solutions.

The sooner ownership is taken of this issue the sooner we can set about remedying it together as one people.




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  Reply # 853263 10-Jul-2013 12:35
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KiwiNZ: 
Targeted housing assistance which allows unemployed families to move from regions of low unemployment.
Venture capital to allow groups to create start ups and thus employment creation in poorer regions.
Targeted housing assistance to reduce overcrowding in substandard housing thus improving health.
Targeted regional health initiatives
Use vacant government or Council land (eg abandoned schools) for community based food production


I think it is still useful to make a distinction between those who end up in group A because of mental illness and those who have health problems because they are in group A.   The causality is opposite.

Anyway--- 

Targeted housing assistance to get people to move -- Already available and doesn't work because people don't want to move away from family / friends.   

Venture capital -- members of group A will blow that cash on drugs / alcohol.   They see it as large taxpayer handouts woohoo!!

Targeted housing to reduce overcrowding -- encourages group A members to have even more children. Group A members already have huge families relative to other groups because they know others will pay for their kids. 

Use vacant land for food production -- What vacant land and is it accessible via public transport?  Group A members will see it as a place to grow dope and lay traps which will end up hurting children. 

You seem to think Group A members follow maslows heirarchy of needs . 

Group A members are not motivated because they get so many handouts ( I generalise, there will be 20% exceptions whom will probably succeed regardless of govt or outside help). 

Really, all of your ideas are already around in one way or another and do not work. 

Now for my solution::::

Encourage group A members to limit kids to 2 per woman (won't say family because group A do not have stable family environments).   Give them payouts /free contraceptino to encourage this. 

If a group A child is in an abusive environment , remove that child and foster/adopt  out.   If noone wants the kid (often kids are damaged), a home will take them . 

Introduce food vouchers and pay govt benefits directly to utilities. 

This will take several generations to achieve a difference. People won't like it because they think people have a right to have children regardless of ability to pay or abuse of said children.    I don't. 

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  Reply # 853264 10-Jul-2013 12:37
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jeffnz: 
I suppose I'll open myself up here but where does all the money go that has, and still is, being given to Iwi as settlements, why isn't that being used to create employment and housing (this is an honest question here) Instead its the blame game and reliance on the government (taxpayer) coming up with more and more cash.


The only money most maoris see from treaty payouts are the paycheck at sanfords for gutting some fish or cleaning the floors. 

The maori elite get the payout. 



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  Reply # 853265 10-Jul-2013 12:38
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jeffnz:

I suppose I'll open myself up here but where does all the money go that has, and still is, being given to Iwi as settlements, why isn't that being used to create employment and housing (this is an honest question here)


Total Settlements so far: NZ$ 952,082,645

Funded by people like me, and used to discriminate against people like me.

I will still have to fund my kids education, they will still get a good education, and get good jobs because of their good education. My kids will end up funding other "free scholarships" too one day. And so wheel turns.

 



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  Reply # 853267 10-Jul-2013 12:42
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KiwiNZ: 

Group A

Very high unemployment, poor Housing, very poor health status and high hospital admission, very high prison and offending including family and other violence. Much lower life expectancy.
Current cost of Benefit payments, Hospital and other health cost, Prison and other crime cost make up a high percentage of the fiscal vote.



So it is our job to pay for people who:
-Muck around at school.
-Don't try at life and get off their own backside.
-Participate in crime.

Really?


KiwiNZ: 
Group B
Less than average unemployment rates, average to better than average housing, Health status meeting WHO expectations, much lower crime and other offending. Life expectancy meeting WHO expectations.

Cost of benefit payments, health etc lower and generally short term,



Yea this is what happens when you go to school, try and actually do something with your life.



KiwiNZ: 
Group C

Very low to zero unemployment rates and generally very short in duration and frequency, well above average housing, well above average health status, very low offending and above average life expectancy.

Very low cost to the fiscal vote.

Given that it makes absolute sense to address the problems that group A has first as the gains to the community as a whole are greater and long term, in other words more bang for your buck. Yes groups B and C may feel they are aggrieved that they are missing out, but that is misinformation and they stand to gain greater in the long term by less fiscal drain on the Government and taxation.

Fix that which is broken first improve others latter. 



This is what happens when you may inherit a fortune, win lotto or work really hard and achieve.






The flaw with your argument is:


A - I wasn't there for the signing of the treaty. I don't actually give a crap about it. I live here and I expect everyone else who lives in this day and age in this country to have equal rights.

B - You think that it is up to people like me, who work hard and never cease to study to fork out for people who muck around or do not apply themselves.


Honestly, how do you think people are going to feel if they have had to go to school, study, work hard and then see their peers who mucked around (regardless of culture) get freebies like what Mana is trying to offer.

Defeats the purpose of anyone trying at life if there are always freebies that deter anyone actually working hard for it.


Not sure what everyone else's views are, but these are mine.




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  Reply # 853273 10-Jul-2013 12:46
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Klipspringer:
jeffnz:

I suppose I'll open myself up here but where does all the money go that has, and still is, being given to Iwi as settlements, why isn't that being used to create employment and housing (this is an honest question here)


Total Settlements so far: NZ$ 952,082,645

Funded by people like me, and used to discriminate against people like me.
I will still have to fund my kids education.

 




With respect, you clearly have no idea about the subject its history etc etc etc 




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


13072 posts

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  Reply # 853274 10-Jul-2013 12:47
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surfisup1000:
jeffnz: 
I suppose I'll open myself up here but where does all the money go that has, and still is, being given to Iwi as settlements, why isn't that being used to create employment and housing (this is an honest question here) Instead its the blame game and reliance on the government (taxpayer) coming up with more and more cash.


The only money most maoris see from treaty payouts are the paycheck at sanfords for gutting some fish or cleaning the floors. 

The maori elite get the payout. 


Do some research with out your blinders and you will learn ....... a lot




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 




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  Reply # 853279 10-Jul-2013 12:52
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KiwiNZ:

With respect, you clearly have no idea about the subject its history etc etc etc 


Do you agree that its discrimination though?

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  Reply # 853283 10-Jul-2013 13:00
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Klipspringer:
KiwiNZ:

With respect, you clearly have no idea about the subject its history etc etc etc 


Do you agree that its discrimination though?


The treaty settlements discrimination ? no they are not

And for clarity I gain nothing from treaty settlements I am of European decent, Danish to be precise 




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 853314 10-Jul-2013 13:35
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Klipspringer:
KiwiNZ:

With respect, you clearly have no idea about the subject its history etc etc etc 


Do you agree that its discrimination though?


No - discrimination would be if I were to say that:
NZ Europeans feature disproportionately highly in terms of requiring treatment by Optometrists (making up 89% of all treatments despite only accounting for 73% of the population)  Therefore we should establish specialist treatment centers for Pakeha to receive free correctional laser surgery to remove this inequality.


Can you spot the difference?

Now if I were to instead say:
Maori only account for 7% of optomitrist visits in NZ, despite comprising 17% of the population.  Therefore we should establish a specialist team of Optometrists to travel to remote & rural Maori communities and provide free treatment for them to remove this inequality.


...that would be ok.  Wink


(nb.  all figures for the purposes of these examples have been made up on the spot and may or may not bear any resemblance to the true numbers.)

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