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  # 857420 16-Jul-2013 14:05
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networkn:
One thing you, and everyone else fails to understand when making these arguments that benefit abuse isn't a big problem, is the loss of productivity that each of these people cause. Those people don't pay anywhere near the amount of tax, nor do they contribute to the workforce the way 
working people (on the whole) do, which adds to the countries GDP Etc. 

Also there are the flow on effects, that a number of people on benefits are living unhealthy lifestyles (Not saying all, before you jump down my throat, and yes I do understand it's often a matter of low income), often don't get medical issues resolved in a timely fashion and all that puts a strain on limited health resources.


I'm not disagreeing with you, but I am trying to put some perspective on it.

Of the total beneficiaries, the percentage who stay on benefits for long periods of time are low, therefore while there any flow on effects, the actual number of people in that category are low.

I support measures to reduce long term welfare dependants, but they have to be carefully balanced with not harming the vulnerable. If people who are genuinely in need are cut off they will end up on the streets and/or committing crime - and that isn't you for anyone.

At a macro level, if you really want to improve the economy - targeting the very small number of long term beneficiaries will cost a lot of money and net little return to the economy. What we need to do is target corporate tax avoidance, and properly tax wealth.




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  # 857421 16-Jul-2013 14:05
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macuser: I think it would be great if people who are on the unemployment benefit are required to do volunteering work for local community groups, or local councils.

This would look great on their CV and also give them a working routine and confidence, which you lose when not in work for a long period of time.

It would be also interesting if retired folks were also required to do it as part of their entitlements, or chose to retire later without the requirement.




Actually mandatory military service comes to mind, after 1 year on the benefit off to the Army reserves you go.

 
 
 
 




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  # 857428 16-Jul-2013 14:28
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dickytim:
macuser: I think it would be great if people who are on the unemployment benefit are required to do volunteering work for local community groups, or local councils.

This would look great on their CV and also give them a working routine and confidence, which you lose when not in work for a long period of time.

It would be also interesting if retired folks were also required to do it as part of their entitlements, or chose to retire later without the requirement.




Actually mandatory military service comes to mind, after 1 year on the benefit off to the Army reserves you go.


I actually really like this idea. Pity we can get that across the line. 

Extending it, you could say, Military service OR a trade apprenticeship.


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  # 857429 16-Jul-2013 14:30
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Wow conscription now that's a good idea...just wondering who are we at war with again??? Personally like I've said I want to get back to the workforce and get back to having the semblance of the normal life I had before however I don't feel that forcing beneficiaries into volunteer work or community work is the way to go.

I think those jobs should be done for free by the criminals. Someone quoted our biggest tax spend being on National Superannuation however I would think that we would be better off having all people who end up incarcerated should be the ones out there doing the community work not just the lucky few who escape jail. It's those people costing us approx $50 - $60k for zero return. They pay no tax, cost a lot and should actually be doing something to give back not those who have worked all their lives.

I do feel that Superannuatants should be income tested as well but maybe at a lesser rate than the rest.



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  # 857432 16-Jul-2013 14:35
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jtbthatsme: Wow conscription now that's a good idea...just wondering who are we at war with again??? Personally like I've said I want to get back to the workforce and get back to having the semblance of the normal life I had before however I don't feel that forcing beneficiaries into volunteer work or community work is the way to go.

I think those jobs should be done for free by the criminals. Someone quoted our biggest tax spend being on National Superannuation however I would think that we would be better off having all people who end up incarcerated should be the ones out there doing the community work not just the lucky few who escape jail. It's those people costing us approx $50 - $60k for zero return. They pay no tax, cost a lot and should actually be doing something to give back not those who have worked all their lives.

I do feel that Superannuatants should be income tested as well but maybe at a lesser rate than the rest.




Putting criminals (And the ones they would allow out of prison are the ones who commit smaller crimes most likely to be attracted to these sort of people anyway) near vulnerable people, ie charities seems like a good idea to you? 

Military service helps instil discipline, fitness and provides training opportunities. It's also going to give accommodation, food etc. Doesn't really matter if we are at war.

Asset testing isn't a bad idea, though it needs to be done on a sliding scale. The vast majority of truly wealthy people I know, donate their super to charity anyway.



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  # 857438 16-Jul-2013 14:43
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I'm talking cleaning streets, sewers, planting trees you know the stuff they do at PD (periodic detention) only a idiot would want to put criminals to work with charities where they can prey on the vunerable. (Please note I am in no way calling you an idiot just saying that that would obviously not be the sort of work I'm talking about) but there is plenty of stuff out there they could be doing instead of sucking tax $$$ for no gain.



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  # 857441 16-Jul-2013 14:47
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jtbthatsme: I'm talking cleaning streets, sewers, planting trees you know the stuff they do at PD (periodic detention) only a idiot would want to put criminals to work with charities where they can prey on the vunerable. (Please note I am in no way calling you an idiot just saying that that would obviously not be the sort of work I'm talking about) but there is plenty of stuff out there they could be doing instead of sucking tax $$$ for no gain.


Yup, in theory excellent idea. Those people need supervision, safety checks, may need transport etc. 

 
 
 
 


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  # 857444 16-Jul-2013 14:59
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Oh for sure at all full supervision a la chain gang styles as far as I am concerned their rights left when they entered the criminal justice system. That of course is my opinion and this is way off topic and for another thread lol.

Beneficiaries (myself included) too need to have checks in place and should at all times when and where able be doing the best they can to get off the system and back into the workforce. (Keywords where able).

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  # 857446 16-Jul-2013 15:00
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Instead of paying for compulsory military training which does not work, the Government should put the money into venture capital which in turn creates paid employment and delivers tax revenue.




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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

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  # 857457 16-Jul-2013 15:19
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I have heard from one who works in the area of a social worker. Military doesn't help. Some have been asked to go to to bootcamp those younger lot, some volunteered, it does improve the individual but few of them get jobs after. One or two have formally joined the army themselves. There are some who comes on and off the system where they do seasonal jobs.

I don't think the changes is that bad but they might tend be a promoter than well balanced one. If an IT manager have been made redundant he/she might be asked to attend work seminars with a bunch of 20yr year olds and to go for interviews be it cold calling telemarketing from their own home. There doesn't seem to be a link to the person or even remotely.  I am not saying to be choosey.  But on the roll there are all these people, surely they could at least some do some matching.  Lowly skilled folks can do those jobs and maybe that IT manager can go back to entry IT or just entry admin office at least it is some resemblance.  It's not odd to hear someone who used to be a bank manager might now be working as a security guard or a bouncer.  That's how sort of advice one might get from them. 

But yeah CGT, means tested super etc.... Some countries also have means tested benefit and or if you haven't worked before you cannot claim the benefit unless there is hardship etc.

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  # 857471 16-Jul-2013 15:48
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KiwiNZ: Instead of paying for compulsory military training which does not work, the Government should put the money into venture capital which in turn creates paid employment and delivers tax revenue.


"does not work" and you not that how exactly, bit of an exaggeration as i know that when I was in the military and assisted with these schemes there were success's not huge but every one that works out is a win don't you think or would just painting a bleak picture suit your story better




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  # 857473 16-Jul-2013 15:51
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ajobbins:

Of the total beneficiaries, the percentage who stay on benefits for long periods of time are low, therefore while there any flow on effects, the actual number of people in that category are low.


Have you got anything to back this up?

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  # 857494 16-Jul-2013 16:34
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I saw that the unions were whining that expecting job seekers in certain industries (eg, transport) must be clean of drugs or risk having their benefit cut was somehow unfair. Give me a break!

Also those with outstanding police warrents could have the same thing happen.




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  # 857504 16-Jul-2013 16:51
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dickytim:
macuser: I think it would be great if people who are on the unemployment benefit are required to do volunteering work for local community groups, or local councils.

This would look great on their CV and also give them a working routine and confidence, which you lose when not in work for a long period of time.

It would be also interesting if retired folks were also required to do it as part of their entitlements, or chose to retire later without the requirement.




Actually mandatory military service comes to mind, after 1 year on the benefit off to the Army reserves you go.


Why do you think we would want them? You should see the drop kicks we get now in the non-technical Army trades. I am currently involved in technical trade training and our apprentices are supposedly the cream of the recruits. Just to have a hope of making a decent fist of their apprenticeships they need additional literacy and numeracy training. Most of them can't even string together a coherent written sentence. 



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  # 857508 16-Jul-2013 16:58
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the thing the military training gives them is confidence in themselves as they have usually never had that sort of training or support before and have no idea where they fit into society or indeed how to react in a work environment.

The LSV scheme had them separated from the main stream military but doing a version of basic training without weapons. I watched some of those that entered the scheme and again at the end and the differance was huge especially in self belief.

The main problem is not so much the training but that there is little or no followup afterwards so they fall through the cracks




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