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59 posts

Master Geek
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  Reply # 857511 16-Jul-2013 16:58
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networkn:
jtbthatsme: Wow conscription now that's a good idea...just wondering who are we at war with again??? Personally like I've said I want to get back to the workforce and get back to having the semblance of the normal life I had before however I don't feel that forcing beneficiaries into volunteer work or community work is the way to go.

I think those jobs should be done for free by the criminals. Someone quoted our biggest tax spend being on National Superannuation however I would think that we would be better off having all people who end up incarcerated should be the ones out there doing the community work not just the lucky few who escape jail. It's those people costing us approx $50 - $60k for zero return. They pay no tax, cost a lot and should actually be doing something to give back not those who have worked all their lives.

I do feel that Superannuatants should be income tested as well but maybe at a lesser rate than the rest.




Putting criminals (And the ones they would allow out of prison are the ones who commit smaller crimes most likely to be attracted to these sort of people anyway) near vulnerable people, ie charities seems like a good idea to you? 

Military service helps instil discipline, fitness and provides training opportunities. It's also going to give accommodation, food etc. Doesn't really matter if we are at war.

Asset testing isn't a bad idea, though it needs to be done on a sliding scale. The vast majority of truly wealthy people I know, donate their super to charity anyway.




Some people just don't want discipline and refuse to be part of a team environment. If you join the right trade within the NZDF you can gain outstanding training and have experiences that no other profession can provide. Just to dispel a myth on accommodation and food if I could though. NZDF does not, and has not for a long time, subsidise accommodation or food for it's personnel. The exception to this is if you are deployed on operations or training exercises.

The days of NZDF subsidising anything are long gone.

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Master Geek
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  Reply # 857513 16-Jul-2013 17:01
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jeffnz: the thing the military training gives them is confidence in themselves as they have usually never had that sort of training or support before and have no idea where they fit into society or indeed how to react in a work environment.

The LSV scheme had them separated from the main stream military but doing a version of basic training without weapons. I watched some of those that entered the scheme and again at the end and the differance was huge especially in self belief.

The main problem is not so much the training but that there is little or no followup afterwards so they fall through the cracks


Unfortunately the LSV programme is very hit or miss with its success. There are some who genuinely benefit from the experience but the majority quickly fall back to their old habits.

 
 
 
 


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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 857516 16-Jul-2013 17:09
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The LSV scheme works for some but that some is a small minority. The LSV should be available to those who want it and will benefit from it. It is still one of those Ambulances at the bottom of the cliff. The real cure for unemployment is ......... jobs. Real sustainable jobs. Yes there is employment out there but there is many many more applicants than vacancies. If we are going to arrest this trend we should be putting money into venture capital to create sustainable employment. New Zealand has one of the lowest rates of provisioning venture capital in the OECD.

Also we need to be sending the young on employment related training before they leave the education system and before they become long term unemployed.




Mike
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The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


Awesome
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  Reply # 857521 16-Jul-2013 17:18
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Klipspringer:
ajobbins:

Of the total beneficiaries, the percentage who stay on benefits for long periods of time are low, therefore while there any flow on effects, the actual number of people in that category are low.


Have you got anything to back this up?


Some stats here http://igps.victoria.ac.nz/WelfareWorkingGroup/Downloads/Working%20papers/CSRE-Who-uses-the-benefit-system-and-for-how-long.pdf





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813 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 857526 16-Jul-2013 17:34
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DarthKermit: I saw that the unions were whining that expecting job seekers in certain industries (eg, transport) must be clean of drugs or risk having their benefit cut was somehow unfair. Give me a break!

Also those with outstanding police warrents could have the same thing happen.


Yeah, I'd like to see our MPs undergo the same thing, to make sure they are not pissed while making decisions
Should be compulsory for all Doctors, Lawyers, Accountants, business leaders too.

813 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 857543 16-Jul-2013 17:51
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sen8or: I can't remember where I read it, but one article did a calculation for mandatory retirement at 60 with a 1mio govt payout.

Old people spend money, keeps economy going.
Old people retiring opens up more jobs

There were a few other points, and of course, it was only one side of he equation, but, it was an interesting read.

As for the article, piss poor reporting by the left wing dominated nz herald, as usual. Don't know enough about her circumstances, but if she gEnuinely can't work for medical reasons, then it would seem her benefit is safe. If she can work but chooses not to, her benefit isn't safe, nor should it be


A bored 65 year old will take up a hobby, not crime, a bit generalised but true.
A 65 year old will volunteer to help with meals on wheels, church groups, etc etc to keep active
A 65 year old will help look after grandkids
A 65 year old will probably still help at school with reading, school trips, etc

An 18 year old unemployed on the other hand is just wasted.

Personally I want every able bodied 18 year old employed when I choose to retire.

We should LOWER the retirement age back to 65, but not compulsory, so that those who have shagged their bodies in hard jobs can retire and spend time with their grandkids, or out fishing, or what ever, perhaps even 60 or earlier with a medical certificate
If you work, you dont get the pension, the pension is for retired people over 60/65, if you are working you are not retired.


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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 857615 16-Jul-2013 19:15
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Having read the story linked to, in this instance something doesn't smell right. Something about her story just doesn't ring true.

- She won't have her benefit cut if she doesn't find a job, only if she doesn't look.

- As I understand it, to have a work requirement put on her when on sickness benefit the (independent) qualified medical professional who assessed her eligibility would have had to say that it was reasonable for her to work, given the severity of her condition. She can appeal this medical assessment if she wants.

- She's having counselling because she can't face people. Apparently she can't even work in a call centre where she only has to talk on the phone. Yet she's fine to go in protest marches with large groups of people, and do full-on face-to-face interviews with reporters?

I have tremendous sympathy for people who genuinely can't work for serious health reasons, and think they should get all the help they need. But there's something fishy in this case.......

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  Reply # 857673 16-Jul-2013 20:33
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sir1963:

A bored 65 year old will take up a hobby, not crime, a bit generalised but true.
A 65 year old will volunteer to help with meals on wheels, church groups, etc etc to keep active
A 65 year old will help look after grandkids
A 65 year old will probably still help at school with reading, school trips, etc

An 18 year old unemployed on the other hand is just wasted.

Personally I want every able bodied 18 year old employed when I choose to retire.

We should LOWER the retirement age back to 65, but not compulsory, so that those who have shagged their bodies in hard jobs can retire and spend time with their grandkids, or out fishing, or what ever, perhaps even 60 or earlier with a medical certificate
If you work, you dont get the pension, the pension is for retired people over 60/65, if you are working you are not retired.



Few thoughts:

The number of people over 65 has tripled since the 1960's (4-12%) and will grow to 25% of the population in 2051.

If we take current spend on Superannuation in 2012  - $9.5 billion (unemployment is $880 million), total spend of $77.6 billion (therefore about 12.2% of our total spending) Source: http://www.treasury.govt.nz/budget/2013/data


If we then make some assumptions, ie. cost per person of super grows at the same rate as the economy (they are linked through CPI), we can make some estimates about how big the hole Super will make in the finances in 2051 by just changing the eligible proportion at current funding levels (as all other things are equal) we analyse real vs nominal prices. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_versus_nominal_value_(economics)

ie. 25/12 = 2.08 * 9.5 = $18.8 billion = 24.2% of our money will be spent on NZ Super...

Worth noting, very awesome spreadsheet (not technically, just in it's transparency).

Jon



1369 posts

Uber Geek
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  Reply # 857681 16-Jul-2013 20:39
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jonherries: 

ie. 25/12 = 2.08 * 9.5 = $18.8 billion = 24.2% of our money will be spent on NZ Super...




Hmm .. so what you are saying is we should start culling old people ?   ;-)

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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 857683 16-Jul-2013 20:41
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Mark:
jonherries: 

ie. 25/12 = 2.08 * 9.5 = $18.8 billion = 24.2% of our money will be spent on NZ Super...




Hmm .. so what you are saying is we should start culling old people ?   ;-)


I did suggest death committees at work, but no one wanted to go there (I work for a District Health Board)... ;)


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  Reply # 857688 16-Jul-2013 20:49
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Sorry, this is the population information:

http://www.stats.govt.nz/browse_for_stats/people_and_communities/older_people/pop-ageing-in-nz.aspx

This is why Treasury is so concerned and has brough this up again http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/politics/8908863/Treasury-gives-four-options-to-control-debt, and why Diana Crossan made the noise she did as retirement commissioner.

Hence my thought that this latest stuff about unemployment is playing at the margins.

Jon

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  Reply # 857693 16-Jul-2013 20:58
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The retired then as now need to be looked after. The numbers of those retiring cannot be altered so the variable that can be addressed is how it is funded.
The answer is similar to that which will deal with unemployment, that is growth, grow our economy and welfare will be taken care of.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


7586 posts

Uber Geek
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  Reply # 857695 16-Jul-2013 21:01
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jonherries:
Mark:
jonherries: 

ie. 25/12 = 2.08 * 9.5 = $18.8 billion = 24.2% of our money will be spent on NZ Super...




Hmm .. so what you are saying is we should start culling old people ?   ;-)


I did suggest death committees at work, but no one wanted to go there (I work for a District Health Board)... ;)



Just set a maximum voting age (we have a minimum voting age - so it's not such a radical suggestion).
Then let mob rule prevail - as if it doesn't already.

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  Reply # 857696 16-Jul-2013 21:05
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Fred99:
Just set a maximum voting age (we have a minimum voting age - so it's not such a radical suggestion).
Then let mob rule prevail - as if it doesn't already.


Haha. One mans mob rule is another mans democracy! :)

I did suggest that we should remove the minimum voting age to encourage responsiveness to the child poverty problem. People didn't like that suggestion either.

Jon

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  Reply # 857707 16-Jul-2013 21:19
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jonherries:
Mark:
jonherries: 

ie. 25/12 = 2.08 * 9.5 = $18.8 billion = 24.2% of our money will be spent on NZ Super...




Hmm .. so what you are saying is we should start culling old people ?   ;-)


I did suggest death committees at work, but no one wanted to go there (I work for a District Health Board)... ;)



The less radical would be 'only those who make a net positive contribution to the government can vote' - it'll probably end up cutting off half the voting population but the remaining portion would at least have some sort of vested intrest in fixing the system rather than milking it with the hope that one dies before the system collapses.




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