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  Reply # 857972 17-Jul-2013 11:42
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Imo give all the old people robot carers that are secretly programmed to euthanise them 




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  Reply # 857990 17-Jul-2013 12:17
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KiwiNZ:
jtbthatsme: Elpie's idea was a good one. I like that idea of sponsor being responsible for the people they help bring in. That is how it should be.

As for the above yes sadly things are never that easy... as like you say it would also have negative effects but as stated the justice system discussion is off topic.

Welfare reforms are ovedue they've not got it right and never will but it's still a step in the right direction as like I pointed out it is not a handout system, it is not a right, there is a criteria and if you fail to meet it and continue to do so then of course you should and will have it cut or stopped.


Benefit payments need to be at a liveable level, take instance unemployment, it can take many months to gain new employment and in the interim food must eaten, rent/mortgage and other bills paid. Same applies to the other temporary benefit, Sickness.
The answer is programmes to move people off benefit as soon as practicable with out causing further hardship.


I do not disagree with you, I don't think anyone will disagree with these comments. The discussion is more around the unemployed that don't plan on doing anything about their situation.

There are plenty of jobs out there that can work around disabilities and medical issues, you might not make more than minimum wage at them but you get out what you put in.

The article that started this threat was fundamentally flawed in that the person being interviewed made some flawed arguments, which has muddied the waters here.

Welfare needs to be a short term answer to a problem, there are jobs out there if you are willing to get dirty, swallow your pride and get yourself out there.




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  Reply # 857991 17-Jul-2013 12:27
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networkn:
jtbthatsme: Wow conscription now that's a good idea...just wondering who are we at war with again??? Personally like I've said I want to get back to the workforce and get back to having the semblance of the normal life I had before however I don't feel that forcing beneficiaries into volunteer work or community work is the way to go.

I think those jobs should be done for free by the criminals. Someone quoted our biggest tax spend being on National Superannuation however I would think that we would be better off having all people who end up incarcerated should be the ones out there doing the community work not just the lucky few who escape jail. It's those people costing us approx $50 - $60k for zero return. They pay no tax, cost a lot and should actually be doing something to give back not those who have worked all their lives.

I do feel that Superannuatants should be income tested as well but maybe at a lesser rate than the rest.




Putting criminals (And the ones they would allow out of prison are the ones who commit smaller crimes most likely to be attracted to these sort of people anyway) near vulnerable people, ie charities seems like a good idea to you? 

Military service helps instil discipline, fitness and provides training opportunities. It's also going to give accommodation, food etc. Doesn't really matter if we are at war.

Asset testing isn't a bad idea, though it needs to be done on a sliding scale. The vast majority of truly wealthy people I know, donate their super to charity anyway.



 
Thank you networkn, this is the point of military service, routine, discipline, fitness and real world training, also when Australia invade us for our considerable national resources we will be able to repell them!

When employing I always look favourably on ex-military or A-res training, usually they show initiative, are punctual and well disciplined, quite often they have good leadership skills and in Australia tend to have good technical skills and a higher level of training than other candidates. I am not sure if this is the same in NZ but I would like to think so.

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  Reply # 857995 17-Jul-2013 12:42
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dickytim:
KiwiNZ:
jtbthatsme: Elpie's idea was a good one. I like that idea of sponsor being responsible for the people they help bring in. That is how it should be.

As for the above yes sadly things are never that easy... as like you say it would also have negative effects but as stated the justice system discussion is off topic.

Welfare reforms are ovedue they've not got it right and never will but it's still a step in the right direction as like I pointed out it is not a handout system, it is not a right, there is a criteria and if you fail to meet it and continue to do so then of course you should and will have it cut or stopped.


Benefit payments need to be at a liveable level, take instance unemployment, it can take many months to gain new employment and in the interim food must eaten, rent/mortgage and other bills paid. Same applies to the other temporary benefit, Sickness.
The answer is programmes to move people off benefit as soon as practicable with out causing further hardship.


I do not disagree with you, I don't think anyone will disagree with these comments. The discussion is more around the unemployed that don't plan on doing anything about their situation.

There are plenty of jobs out there that can work around disabilities and medical issues, you might not make more than minimum wage at them but you get out what you put in.

The article that started this threat was fundamentally flawed in that the person being interviewed made some flawed arguments, which has muddied the waters here.

Welfare needs to be a short term answer to a problem, there are jobs out there if you are willing to get dirty, swallow your pride and get yourself out there.





It is just not that simple to say there are plenty of jobs out there, it is a complicated issue, there are regional differences, there are the individual abilities in relation to the available employment etc etc . It simply is not easy to apply a short term solution to a long term problem.
It will also probably surprise you that the numbers of those who have no desire to work are very very low.




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The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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  Reply # 858001 17-Jul-2013 12:58
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joker97: try this http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/cricket/8929053/Former-Black-Cap-on-dole-queue


Point being?

it happens many times a day at Work and Income offices the length and width of New Zealand




Mike
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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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  Reply # 858027 17-Jul-2013 13:29
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KiwiNZ:
sir1963:
dickytim: Wow, when did living on the benefit full time and not being willing to work become a right?

If I had my way they would get their food brought for them, their electricity and landline with local calls paid for and no cash at all.

There is a need for welfare, and genuine people who can't work for physical reasons but it should not be a lifestyle.

The comment in the article that sticks in my head is "that's hard." Life is hard, I hate my job, it is very stressful and difficult! 

The comments about New Zealanders having to jump thru hoops to get the benefit, damn this is how it should be! It should not be an easy answer.

Before anyone asks, yes I have been on the benefit, in Australia and it was due to my own laziness.

I have also been a very low paying jobs doing cleaning and working fast food for minimum wage in order to get myself a leg up.


Tell me, are you any good at Chemistry, physics, perhaps golf, play the piano, can you fly a plane ?

Why is it that we have compassion for the blind, the deaf, the paralysed, is it because we can pretend to know what its like by closing our eyes etc ?
Why is it that we have no compassion for those who are unable to manage their lives ?
EVERY skill has a grade.
Heck I work with people with PhDs, and see how incompetent they are with computers and technology, yet they are doing math etc,etc that I can not even begin to understand, some speak 3 or more languages.

Its easy to brush off the things you fail at as being "just a game" or "unimportant", yet at life compared to Donald Trump, Bob Jones, and millions of others world wide, you are not up there, you may well be even a bit below average, but to have an average someone MUST be below you, and these people have mental or other emotional illnesses  that prevent them from managing their lives properly.



There is a culture of taking delight in kicking people who are down in New Zealand, it is often clearly present on GZ. I guess it must make folks feel better about themselves.




There is also a culture of mucking around at school, putting zero effort into society and in life then expecting hard working people to give them a free ride in life.

If you are happy to pay for them to sit around at home on a benefit, then thats fine. You pay for them.



I do not see why I should. My taxes should pay for people who have already worked hard and contributed to our society and now receiving the pension to have a comfortable life.
Not people my own age or slightly older who are just bumming around.






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  Reply # 858031 17-Jul-2013 13:30
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joker97: try this http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/cricket/8929053/Former-Black-Cap-on-dole-queue


The article is a big vague about how he expects to earn more this way, given he has walked away from a $60k/6month seasonal contract that he pretty much says he could've done for another 2 - 3 years, and has no skills to do anything specific else. Surely it would have been better to use he 6 months off-season for education/training to lead to a better transition in a couple years time? *confused* The dole shouldn't really be used for people who want to quit their job, imo.




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  Reply # 858071 17-Jul-2013 14:28
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KiwiNZ:
6FIEND:

You seem to have missed the two key changes I was proposing?

Ie. benefit rate is significantly increased to match full time employment at minimum wage. And abates at 10% per month...


I don't see a need to increase it, I also do not support the abatement idea, administratively very difficult to manage and would cause undue hardship especially given how long it takes to find employment.



You don't see a need to increase it?   So all the commentary prior to this about how "it's not enough to live on" and all the "extra assistance" grants for food or power bills or vehicle repairs etc. that are paid out are all without merit?   I'm struggling to understand your viewpoint here...  (admittedly, we do disagree a LOT :-)

It would cause undue hardship?  Even though the beneficiary would be fiscally better off (compared to the status quo) for over two years?   Surely long-term welfare dependency is the problem that most needs to be addressed...  using ten months of carrots before bringing out even the smallest of sticks hardly constitutes undue hardship I would have thought?

As for administration...  Well, I just modelled it in a spreadsheet in 45sec... I can't imagine that it would be anything other than automated?

The trick would be to avoid leaving a beneficiary without options... Maybe creation of 'fake' jobs could mitigate this...  Eg. After 12 months of unsuccessfully finding work, beneficiaries are provided with the option to spend 40hrs per week scanning files to /dev/null or moving piles of rocks from the south end of a quarry to the north end...  Effectively creating "100% useless" Public Service jobs(*) that JobSeekers can do for minimum wage when sitting at home collecting an ever decreasing benefit becomes insufficient.

(*) So as not to take jobs away from employed people.

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  Reply # 858080 17-Jul-2013 14:47
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Inphinity:
joker97: try this http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/cricket/8929053/Former-Black-Cap-on-dole-queue


The article is a big vague about how he expects to earn more this way, given he has walked away from a $60k/6month seasonal contract that he pretty much says he could've done for another 2 - 3 years, and has no skills to do anything specific else. Surely it would have been better to use he 6 months off-season for education/training to lead to a better transition in a couple years time? *confused* The dole shouldn't really be used for people who want to quit their job, imo.


The article is also vague as to why his wife isn't working full time already given he only works 6 months of the year. Surely 2 people working a collective 18 months a year could look after themselves and two kids quite well, especially when they'd only have to pay for 6 months of child care a year. Or does he not want to actually look after his kids, only pay for them?

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  Reply # 858081 17-Jul-2013 14:50
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6FIEND:
KiwiNZ:
6FIEND:

You seem to have missed the two key changes I was proposing?

Ie. benefit rate is significantly increased to match full time employment at minimum wage. And abates at 10% per month...


I don't see a need to increase it, I also do not support the abatement idea, administratively very difficult to manage and would cause undue hardship especially given how long it takes to find employment.



You don't see a need to increase it?   So all the commentary prior to this about how "it's not enough to live on" and all the "extra assistance" grants for food or power bills or vehicle repairs etc. that are paid out are all without merit?   I'm struggling to understand your viewpoint here...  (admittedly, we do disagree a LOT :-)

It would cause undue hardship?  Even though the beneficiary would be fiscally better off (compared to the status quo) for over two years?   Surely long-term welfare dependency is the problem that most needs to be addressed...  using ten months of carrots before bringing out even the smallest of sticks hardly constitutes undue hardship I would have thought?

As for administration...  Well, I just modelled it in a spreadsheet in 45sec... I can't imagine that it would be anything other than automated?

The trick would be to avoid leaving a beneficiary without options... Maybe creation of 'fake' jobs could mitigate this...  Eg. After 12 months of unsuccessfully finding work, beneficiaries are provided with the option to spend 40hrs per week scanning files to /dev/null or moving piles of rocks from the south end of a quarry to the north end...  Effectively creating "100% useless" Public Service jobs(*) that JobSeekers can do for minimum wage when sitting at home collecting an ever decreasing benefit becomes insufficient.

(*) So as not to take jobs away from employed people.


The level of benefits now compared to average incomes is "liveable". If the Government has additional funding available I would prefer to see that go into venture capital and employment training etc to provide sustainable real employment.

As for administration, if you have spent many years administering welfare then I may listen to you.




Mike
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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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  Reply # 858084 17-Jul-2013 14:54
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PaulBags:
Inphinity:
joker97: try this http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/cricket/8929053/Former-Black-Cap-on-dole-queue


The article is a big vague about how he expects to earn more this way, given he has walked away from a $60k/6month seasonal contract that he pretty much says he could've done for another 2 - 3 years, and has no skills to do anything specific else. Surely it would have been better to use he 6 months off-season for education/training to lead to a better transition in a couple years time? *confused* The dole shouldn't really be used for people who want to quit their job, imo.


The article is also vague as to why his wife isn't working full time already given he only works 6 months of the year. Surely 2 people working a collective 18 months a year could look after themselves and two kids quite well, especially when they'd only have to pay for 6 months of child care a year. Or does he not want to actually look after his kids, only pay for them?


If he/they meet the Statutory requirements of Section 89 of the SSA then they will and should be granted Income Support.




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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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  Reply # 858091 17-Jul-2013 15:17
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As they should. I wonder why so many people are upset about Beneficiaries. Its not as if it was a large amount of money. I would have thought people would be far more upset about wealthy people committing fraud or down right stealing. How about getting upset about Cabinet ministers ripping off NZ by misusing their credit card, or claiming for Housing assistance in their electorate whilst they lived full time in Wellington, or setting up their house, banks account etc into trusts so they can hide things away from IRD.  I would bet there is far more lost through white collar crime than through welfare benefits. But no one cares about such crimes. maybe its easier beating up on the downtrodden than criticizing so called fat cats



If he/they meet the Statutory requirements of Section 89 of the SSA then they will and should be granted Income Support.




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  Reply # 858094 17-Jul-2013 15:22
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KiwiNZ: As for administration, if you have spent many years administering welfare then I may listen to you.


So - unless someone is an expert in the "old way" of doing something, they cannot possibly have anything helpful or insightful to say about a new process?

At least I can now filter your commentary in the context of a known level of closed-mindedness...

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  Reply # 858095 17-Jul-2013 15:24
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KiwiNZ:
If he/they meet the Statutory requirements of Section 89 of the SSA then they will and should be granted Income Support.


See, this is one of the bits I disagree with. To me, "I quit my above-average-paying job without having organised any other source of income" shouldn't qualify, but it does, when I feel it should be better targetted but more effective, though specifically how to do that is obviously a big debate.




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