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BDFL - Memuneh
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  Reply # 865614 25-Jul-2013 09:45
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History repeats itself. Making sure these things don't happen is the vigilance citizens need to keep over governments and people.

Of course one can say this is all FUD, a slippery slope argument, so let the government do whatever they want and deal with it if it happens. But seeing that absolute surveillance have been used before in other states to nefarious purposes, this is not a good idea.

People control governments, not the other way around. The notion of government equals country is wrong. Of course once in power governments will try to perpetuate their presence. That's why laws exist to prevent some officers to hold positions for long time. Sometimes officers are changed but governments are the same.





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  Reply # 865633 25-Jul-2013 09:52
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freitasm: History repeats itself. Making sure these things don't happen is the vigilance citizens need to keep over governments and people.

Of course one can say this is all FUD, a slippery slope argument, so let the government do whatever they want and deal with it if it happens. But seeing that absolute surveillance have been used before in other states to nefarious purposes, this is not a good idea.

People control governments, not the other way around. The notion of government equals country is wrong. Of course once in power governments will try to perpetuate their presence. That's why laws exist to prevent some officers to hold positions for long time. Sometimes officers are changed but governments are the same.



The reality is the only real control we have over Governments is every three years, once in power (with a clear majority) the government controls. After all we do not have powers to legally remove an elected government between elections. We cannot even stop this Bill.




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  Reply # 865635 25-Jul-2013 09:53
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freitasm: History repeats itself. Making sure these things don't happen is the vigilance citizens need to keep over governments and people.

Of course one can say this is all FUD, a slippery slope argument, so let the government do whatever they want and deal with it if it happens. But seeing that absolute surveillance have been used before in other states to nefarious purposes, this is not a good idea.

People control governments, not the other way around. The notion of government equals country is wrong. Of course once in power governments will try to perpetuate their presence. That's why laws exist to prevent some officers to hold positions for long time. Sometimes officers are changed but governments are the same.



I agree with what you are saying. But I believe we live in a democracy (A very good one in fact). I currently have enough faith in our government to allow them to have easy access to this information.

If I did not have faith in the goverment well that would be a different story.

At the end of the day, you right we control the government. If that changes well then we no longer really living in a democracy are we. If we not happy with what the goverment is planning, or doing. There is an easy solution. Vote them out.

I don't believe that we will ever have a government in NZ that does not have majority support. If these rules come into affect, they have majority support. And that's what democracy is.



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  Reply # 865637 25-Jul-2013 09:55
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Exactly. But we can show we do not like it, and that they have people who won't vote for them next time.

I for example have decided not to vote for National again, and I have done it since moving here 17 years ago.




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  Reply # 865638 25-Jul-2013 09:59
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freitasm: Exactly. But we can show we do not like it, and that they have people who won't vote for them next time.

I for example have decided not to vote for National again, and I have done it since moving here 17 years ago.


I have never been a National, Labour, Green........ voter. I have always voted for (since MMP) the party that has at the time of the election what I consider the best policies and the best personnel. I have also voted for what I thought was the best candidate in my electorate.




Mike
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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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  Reply # 865645 25-Jul-2013 10:06
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KiwiNZ:
freitasm: Exactly. But we can show we do not like it, and that they have people who won't vote for them next time.

I for example have decided not to vote for National again, and I have done it since moving here 17 years ago.


I have never been a National, Labour, Green........ voter. I have always voted for (since MMP) the party that has at the time of the election what I consider the best policies and the best personnel. I have also voted for what I thought was the best candidate in my electorate.


Imagine a government that could collect referendums on the fly?

For every law change, ie like this one, we could just have a referendum. Maybe do it online?

Currently the way things work with MMP etc is that we can have new laws being bulldozed through parliament, even being passed without a majority agreement (MP's get to vote. Why not us citizens). I think this is wrong. Even when the current government gets voted out these laws are never reverted. All this bulldozing makes me actually question our democracy.

One day maybe we will have such a party here in NZ. When that day comes I will vote for them.

Edit: Yip this is a contradiction to my previous post. Food for thought!

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  Reply # 865648 25-Jul-2013 10:09
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Our government doesn't do referendums, which would cost a fortune to us. But they do collect submissions. Those submission are an existing part of the process. in some extreme cases people need to voice their opinions through other avenues when a bill is in front of the Parliament that is even more important than others.

Of course each segment of the society will deem their own interests more important than others. You might ask me about a current bill on agricultural changes and I'd have known nothing about it... But the interested people/parties would be raising the issues in their communities, media (print and digital) if there were any pressing problems. This seems to be the case in this specific bill.




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  Reply # 865650 25-Jul-2013 10:10
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Klipspringer:
KiwiNZ:
freitasm: Exactly. But we can show we do not like it, and that they have people who won't vote for them next time.

I for example have decided not to vote for National again, and I have done it since moving here 17 years ago.


I have never been a National, Labour, Green........ voter. I have always voted for (since MMP) the party that has at the time of the election what I consider the best policies and the best personnel. I have also voted for what I thought was the best candidate in my electorate.


Imagine a government that could collect referendums on the fly?

For every law change, ie like this one, we could just have a referendum. Maybe do it online?

Currently the way things work with MMP etc is that we can have new laws being bulldozed through parliament, even being passed without a majority agreement (MP's get to vote. Why not us citizens). I think this is wrong. Even when the current government gets voted out these laws are never reverted. All this bulldozing makes me actually question our democracy.

One day maybe we will have such a party here in NZ. When that day comes I will vote for them.


Our Parliamentary system is only in part a democracy, we vote a Government to Govern not procrastinate. What you are suggesting is paralysis.




Mike
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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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  Reply # 865651 25-Jul-2013 10:11
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freitasm: Our government doesn't do referendums, which would cost a fortune to us. But they do collect submissions. Those submission are an existing part of the process. in some extreme cases people need to voice their opinions through other avenues when a bill is in front of the Parliament that is even more important than others.

Of course each segment of the society will deem their own interests more important than others. You might ask me about a current bill on agricultural changes and I'd have known nothing about it... But the interested people/parties would be raising the issues in their communities, media (print and digital) if there were any pressing problems. This seems to be the case in this specific bill.


That is what select committees are and a good example of representative government




Mike
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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

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The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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  Reply # 865659 25-Jul-2013 10:14
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We do have the right to peaceful lawful protest and I support the march for that reason. If that protest turns illegal my support is withdrawn.




Mike
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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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  Reply # 865712 25-Jul-2013 11:05
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Klipspringer:

Imagine a government that could collect referendums on the fly?

For every law change, ie like this one, we could just have a referendum. Maybe do it online?



That is being worked on but is also problematic if you think about it.

Did you watch the doco on Helen Clark last night?

Did you stop and think about the amount of historic information about that person that the media has access to?

Do you really want a central system that tracks your choices and views on things over your entire life?

Do you want the government having control of that information?

You have seen how they care for WINZ data, CERA data, ACCC data, EQC data.




Promote New Zealand - Get yourself a .kiwi.nz domain name!!!

Check out mine - i.am.a.can.do.kiwi.nz - don@i.am.a.can.do.kiwi.nz


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  Reply # 865719 25-Jul-2013 11:13
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DonGould:
Klipspringer:

Imagine a government that could collect referendums on the fly?

For every law change, ie like this one, we could just have a referendum. Maybe do it online?



That is being worked on but is also problematic if you think about it.

Did you watch the doco on Helen Clark last night?

Did you stop and think about the amount of historic information about that person that the media has access to?

Do you really want a central system that tracks your choices and views on things over your entire life?

Do you want the government having control of that information?

You have seen how they care for WINZ data, CERA data, ACCC data, EQC data.


The question you need to ask your self is why do they or why would they collect this info. I cannot see any logical reason they would.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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  Reply # 865721 25-Jul-2013 11:14
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KiwiNZ:... I also don't buy into the scare and dread scenarios they tend to make rational people ignore the issue completely.


Some days KiwiNZ I think you say some really really smart things :)

I 100% agree with you on that point.

So far I've read some really quite silly suggestions and seen very little sensible talk about real things that actually happen and have happened in the past.

The suggestion that people go rogue and start doing stuff on purpose is silly.  Yes it can/could happen, but it's not what seems to happen most often.

What does seem to happen is people making poor choices with good intention, thinking they're doing the correct thing.

Look at the GCSB staff who are 'seconded' to other agencies as an example.

In that example, power was given to the GCSB by the public, but not the SIS or Police, so they just 'moved' the power and resource to get around the rules without asking the public until they were found out.

When they were found out, it cost an MP his job.

In my view, MPs should have the right to speak up without it costing them their job.

In my mind, we vote in MPs as a trusted person who will talk to us, the public.  What has happened is that a clear message has been sent to MP's "Keep your mouth shut or your out, and leave the 'government' to do as it chooses".

That's not ok and Mr Dunne has my vote at the next election just on that point alone.








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  Reply # 865726 25-Jul-2013 11:23
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KiwiNZ:  The question you need to ask your self is why do they or why would they collect this info. I cannot see any logical reason they would.


The reason media collect information on people like Helen Clark is simple.  It makes for really interesting history.

The argument for collecting your views on polls over the next 50 years of your life is so we can spot if you're views are heading off the rails and you pose a threat to the rest of us. 

Are you becoming more and more unhappy with the state and likely to start planning to blow up parliament?  Will Guy Forks day become KiwiNZ day?

But the logic isn't sound. 

Keeping secrets to find secrets is not the answer to stopping you from becoming "KiwiNZ day".

The real answer is open, honest, transparent engagement with you.

Why are you smoking the weed? 
Why are you drinking the booze? 
Why are you spending your nights on the porn? 
Why don't you have a job any more? 
Why doesn't your family like you any more? 
Why do you only want to play computer games that kill other people?
Why do you spend your time dreaming up bombs?
Why are you the guy who doesn't seem to play nice at paint ball but wants to just punish everyone?
Why have you become isolated?
Why are you drink driving?
Why are you at the pokies all the time?
Why do you turn up at work looking like a wreck?
Why didn't you make my birthday party?


...the list could go on and on of warning signs that could suggest why we should get behind giving you some face to face love and support, not pay IT geeks millions just to spy on you.





Promote New Zealand - Get yourself a .kiwi.nz domain name!!!

Check out mine - i.am.a.can.do.kiwi.nz - don@i.am.a.can.do.kiwi.nz


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  Reply # 865733 25-Jul-2013 11:39
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Klipspringer:
Good point.

But I don't buy into your "government wants to silence" theory.


Well, it's just one (admittedly extreme) example, but the point is, if you concede this right now, you will never get it back. You can't predict what will happen in the future, or how future governments or leaders could use or abuse these powers.

Surely if that can happen, it will happen already based on data which is already publicly available from other places. Ie, facebook, twitter, blogs etc ... All the identity information for those sort of sites can already be requested by government. Some of it is already out there and there is no need to request anything. We have seen many cases already of the likes of google and facebook being forced to hand identity information over.

Good example, the facebook pakeha party page. Surely it would be in governments favour to silence them? Everybody already knows everything about who has setup the page, who owns it etc ... The guy even made himself public. Everybody that comments makes himself/herself public.... All those racist remarks. Nothing is happening to silence them. What about all the "family first" websites. Why is government not silencing them? What about their members?

IP Addresses, usernames emails etc of posts on this very forum are not safe from anybody. The website owner can already be forced to supply identity information if its requested. If the government wants to silence, well the means to do it is already there. This law changes nothing.


But right now, the police need a warrant to access that information, from a judge, with enough evidence to suggest you are committing a crime. What this law would allow is for the Prime Minister himself to decide (based on no more than suspicion) that you are a "threat to National Security" and have you monitored.

Look at Ed Snowden. If someone else in the NSA happened to come across some data on him that showed he was collecting classified documents, booking plane tickets, Googling Hong Kong etc, do you think he would have been arrested, put on public trial in a court of law, and given a fair chance to defend himself, or do you think they would have put him through a secret 'military' court where the proceeding are secret, and the outcome decided by partisan military heads who want to maintain the status quo? Or do you think think he would have just vanished off the face of the earth? My money would not be on the first option......and this is the very same government that seems to be pulling the stings of our own government RIGHT NOW.

I'm not a 'leftie', and voted for National in two of the last three election. While I didn't vote for them in the last election, at that time I did think they were the best of the big parties (hint: I didn't vote Labour either). I used to like Key. I used to think he had some good ideas, a good plan and was trustworthy. Sadly, his actions, and the actions of him ministers in current term in Government have me very, very worried about what is really going on behind closed doors.







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