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  Reply # 865831 25-Jul-2013 13:05
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ajobbins:
KiwiNZ: The US loves to waste money. We don't because we don't have it to waste.


Who's to say they aren't funding it in return for access to the information? The government can also push a lot of the cost onto other parties. Ie. They enact a law saying that all ISPs need to keep comprehensive records about a users browsing history for x period. They push the cost burden of collection and storage onto the ISP (And ultimately to the customers), then they just access it.




I don't buy into the US funding argument. 




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  Reply # 865880 25-Jul-2013 13:46
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KiwiNZ: 
Sorry I should clarify. We need all the buildings in Wellington filled with computers. They also need to be upgraded each year. My wife sells computers, servers etc and IT and coms services.

I am flexible in my views on this subject I have needs :)


Sounds fair. :-D




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  Reply # 865915 25-Jul-2013 14:32
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KiwiNZ: She does also  sell to schools, Hospitals, and numerous community organisations through out NZ.


So in other words, if she's[1] not selling gear to spy on the rest of us then she still has an income.


KiwiNZ: She also gives to Charities



So the government gives her money to provide gear to them so they can spy on us all, then she gives some of that money to charities.

Why?  So she feels better about providing gear to a select few so they can spy on the rest of us?

It would be better if the government just gave the money directly to the charities rather than spending it on gear to spy on us all.



KiwiNZ: and recycles a lot of equipment to community groups.


So in other words, really good gear is purchased to spy on us, then when it becomes not good enough any more it's then given to community groups.

It would be more useful to just give the good gear directly to the community groups so they could do what they do rather than to a select group to spy on us all.


KiwiNZ: But it is a reality of commerce based in Wellington that a lot of ones business is to Government.


I have no problem with the reality of commerce.

But this issue is not about good commerce.  It's about very VERY bad commerce where our TAX money, YOUR tax money, is being given to people like your wife to provide gear to spy on all of us.

If that is what we voted for, then that would be ok, but it is NOT what we voted for.

We voted that the Police and SIS don't have this equipment and skill.


[1]  I think KiwiNZ seems to be able to abstract the issue from the personal relationship with his wife, which is good.  Others should note that this issue is NOT about attacking him or his wife for their choices. 
The issue is simply about discussion about the choices we're making in society.




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  Reply # 865922 25-Jul-2013 14:39
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SaltyNZ:
KiwiNZ: 
Sorry I should clarify. We need all the buildings in Wellington filled with computers. They also need to be upgraded each year. My wife sells computers, servers etc and IT and coms services.

I am flexible in my views on this subject I have needs :)


Sounds fair. :-D


I'm not sure it that was sarcastic or you were just commenting on his interest to be flexible in his views.

I don't think it's a good dynamic to be in, that we have people who will be loosing jobs if we stop selling this spy equipment.  We need to sort that out.

I've also been giving thought to this issue of the GCSB having the right to tell telco's how to design systems.   For Telecom that may be outright insulting but for small operators that may also have some value in constructing stronger better networks.

I think that rather than the GCSB having over sight and say, they should be using those people to provide education and training and resource to provide the sort of networks that we all want.  That doesn't need to mean that they get to make design choices, it means they should be transparent and open in the public space the say way FLOSS systems and software is developed.





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  Reply # 865928 25-Jul-2013 14:47
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DonGould:


I'm not sure it that was sarcastic or you were just commenting on his interest to be flexible in his views.




Neither, just being silly for a change of pace. :-)




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  Reply # 865941 25-Jul-2013 15:02
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DonGould:
KiwiNZ: She does also  sell to schools, Hospitals, and numerous community organisations through out NZ.


So in other words, if she's[1] not selling gear to spy on the rest of us then she still has an income.


KiwiNZ: She also gives to Charities



So the government gives her money to provide gear to them so they can spy on us all, then she gives some of that money to charities.

Why?  So she feels better about providing gear to a select few so they can spy on the rest of us?

It would be better if the government just gave the money directly to the charities rather than spending it on gear to spy on us all.



KiwiNZ: and recycles a lot of equipment to community groups.


So in other words, really good gear is purchased to spy on us, then when it becomes not good enough any more it's then given to community groups.

It would be more useful to just give the good gear directly to the community groups so they could do what they do rather than to a select group to spy on us all.


KiwiNZ: But it is a reality of commerce based in Wellington that a lot of ones business is to Government.


I have no problem with the reality of commerce.

But this issue is not about good commerce.  It's about very VERY bad commerce where our TAX money, YOUR tax money, is being given to people like your wife to provide gear to spy on all of us.

If that is what we voted for, then that would be ok, but it is NOT what we voted for.

We voted that the Police and SIS don't have this equipment and skill.


[1]  I think KiwiNZ seems to be able to abstract the issue from the personal relationship with his wife, which is good.  Others should note that this issue is NOT about attacking him or his wife for their choices. 
The issue is simply about discussion about the choices we're making in society.


Basically the work she does keeps a lot of people employed e.g Developers, Engineers, Help desk Analysts, Support staff etc etc . If she sells they get paid and of course I get the odd treat. 
As for charitable work, well that is something we both do. It is not for cleansing it is because of personal experiences and what I have witnessed when I was working.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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  Reply # 866013 25-Jul-2013 16:39
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KiwiNZ:  Basically the work she does keeps a lot of people employed e.g Developers, Engineers, Help desk Analysts, Support staff etc etc . If she sells they get paid and of course I get the odd treat.


Yes I see the obvious problem with 40 years of pushing an information economy.

We now have stacks and stacks of people who can't build houses so we need to import builders to fix Christchurch but we have people who spy on New Zealanders.

At some point in time we had to stay STOP to all the people being paid just to kill other people.

When people like your wifes great grandparents sold bombs to the government lots of people got jobs.

We really need to learn from our history.


KiwiNZ:  As for charitable work, well that is something we both do. It is not for cleansing it is because of personal experiences and what I have witnessed when I was working.


How does spying on New Zealanders translate to useful work in a charity?  

We shouldn't need to spy on people to understand how to help them.  We should be engaging them directly.





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  Reply # 866014 25-Jul-2013 16:40
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5dBZDSSky0


How do you get judges in your back pocket?

Intelligence Agencies are not about protecting you from terrorists.


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  Reply # 866023 25-Jul-2013 16:58
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DonGould:
KiwiNZ:  Basically the work she does keeps a lot of people employed e.g Developers, Engineers, Help desk Analysts, Support staff etc etc . If she sells they get paid and of course I get the odd treat.


Yes I see the obvious problem with 40 years of pushing an information economy.

We now have stacks and stacks of people who can't build houses so we need to import builders to fix Christchurch but we have people who spy on New Zealanders.

At some point in time we had to stay STOP to all the people being paid just to kill other people.

When people like your wifes great grandparents sold bombs to the government lots of people got jobs.

We really need to learn from our history.


KiwiNZ:  As for charitable work, well that is something we both do. It is not for cleansing it is because of personal experiences and what I have witnessed when I was working.


How does spying on New Zealanders translate to useful work in a charity?  

We shouldn't need to spy on people to understand how to help them.  We should be engaging them directly.



There is more than spying done by Government. Is it not better that a NZ company sells to them than a Chinese ? If a Chinese or Korean corp does the selling the charity is nil

This proposed legislation I cannot change or influence, there are however things that I can do to make a difference elsewhere. 




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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  Reply # 866133 25-Jul-2013 19:55
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KiwiNZ: This proposed legislation I cannot change or influence


This is a terrible and dangerous attitude to have in a democracy. And indeed the more people that believe it, the less of a democracy we live in.

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  Reply # 866136 25-Jul-2013 20:02
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PaulBags:
KiwiNZ: This proposed legislation I cannot change or influence


This is a terrible and dangerous attitude to have in a democracy. And indeed the more people that believe it, the less of a democracy we live in.


When there is a Government with a clear majority in the house how can Mr Citizen stop them passing legislation?




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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  Reply # 866156 25-Jul-2013 20:30
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KiwiNZ:
PaulBags:
KiwiNZ: This proposed legislation I cannot change or influence


This is a terrible and dangerous attitude to have in a democracy. And indeed the more people that believe it, the less of a democracy we live in.


When there is a Government with a clear majority in the house how can Mr Citizen stop them passing legislation?


Rise up in protest.




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  Reply # 866178 25-Jul-2013 21:13
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KiwiNZ: When there is a Government with a clear majority in the house how can Mr Citizen stop them passing legislation?


There are lots of things we can all do.

Personally I'm going to show up to a protest because I figure it's a bit like a vote in election.  If we all have this attitude that we don't count so don't vote then we just don't...

But I'm also thinking about what I'm going to write to my local MP and about making an appointment to talk to her.  That's part of the reason I want to go to the protest, so I can collect ideas about what I should say and so I can show through my actions that I am actually serious about this issue and not just whinging.

I'm also an Internet New Zealand member, are you?  I've been following the discussions and offering input where I can.

I'm talking about the issues with my friends and family, letting them know this stuff worries me and why.

I post on open lists such as Geekzone to let people know it worries me and engage others.

Come the next election I'll be putting my support behind who ever will repeal this legislation if Key is stupid enough to push it through.  You're right, that really might not sound like much of a threat at all...  I don't have much of a track record in the political space or much clue of what I'm doing, but hey, I like freedom... how about you?

Who caught the feed back to that woman on Campbell Live tonight?  Does anyone recall the item following the "if you have nothing to hide then you're ok" type comment about the NAZI propaganda machine?





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  Reply # 866181 25-Jul-2013 21:19
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The bottom line,  there can be protests etc in every town and city a Government with a majority can pass what they wish. who can remember the massive anti Spring Bok tour protest? It changed nothing the tour went ahead.

The Government may lose the next election but the legislation will have been passed and seldom repealed.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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  Reply # 866183 25-Jul-2013 21:22
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I've never actually seen this answered one way or the other and I've followed it on the news and Campbell Live's features. Will the bill result in warrantless or warranted search/surveillance?

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