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3889 posts

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  Reply # 866872 26-Jul-2013 22:33
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freitasm:
networkn: There is a lot less red tape (That everyone complains so bitterly about) in countries where citizens aren't allowed an opinion!


Sure. There are also a lot more people being sent to gulags or simply "disappear" in those countries too.

So you rather have less freedom if you could have less red tape?




I just assumed he was trolling.

I don't really understand the science in the correlation he's making.

I wonder if in .nz we pay $4b for a road, but our workers have a say on pay rates and get paid more, while in other places they have no say, they get a road for $400m but their workers also get paid accordingly and have a quality of life that goes with being paid 10% of what our workers get?

Is he suggesting that by taking away our right to speak freely then we'd have more time just to build the new roads faster at a lower cost?

I'm quite confused.








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  Reply # 866873 26-Jul-2013 22:34
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networkn:
 

Seems to me that a change to drinking laws and better policing in the bars would be a far better use of tax dollars.



My God are you INSANE!? This is how people react over a modification to an existing bill, imagine the screaming from every rooftop if you reduced how much people could DRINK or when, woe is ME, someone wants to impinge my right to DRINK!!

People in NZ have an overdeveloped sense of entitlement, nothing can get done because everyone wants to have their say even at the expense of everyone and everything else. 

No wonder it takes $4B to build a stupid road and takes 10 years.

There is a lot less red tape (That everyone complains so bitterly about) in countries where citizens aren't allowed an opinion!


If a desire to maintain democracy and privacy and a few other basic civil liberties we all take fro granted is "Insane" then you can add me to that list too.

I'd like to think the bill would make it easier to catch the odd terrorist but despite that being how it has been branded by the PM ( which should set off alarm bells) thousands of times more people die from cancer and car crashes so do we take compulsory blood tests and search all cars for drugs every time someone is to drive one. Of course terrorists might be smart enough to not use their own internet connections and might even be smart enough to use encryption, so then who does it really serve ?
I have no problems with authorities going after criminals, but it needs to be kept in perspective, if there is a warrant issued by a judge and due process is followed, fine, that's what the law is for.
As for the nothing to hide nothing to fear argument, bollocks, I have a problem with governments recording the emails I send people, some contain business communication and discussion of ideas. I very much doubt it will be a big deal in 5 years to crack encrypted messages sent today. Consider NZ becoming a very different place,lets say we lock up people who can't get on with others or who have differing opinions to the government on certain issues, now think about all the posts you have made on the net in the last 10 years, I almost guarantee I could catch everyone out on something. It amazes me that some people do not see that the core of democracy and civil liberties is under threat here. 
I also fear that people in a society who are constantly under surveillance may behave differently, very differently, they might take more extreme actions when they can, they might lose their individuality, their hope, their humanness. 

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  Reply # 866875 26-Jul-2013 22:37
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DonGould:
freitasm:
networkn: There is a lot less red tape (That everyone complains so bitterly about) in countries where citizens aren't allowed an opinion!


Sure. There are also a lot more people being sent to gulags or simply "disappear" in those countries too.

So you rather have less freedom if you could have less red tape?



I just assumed he was trolling.


No, he wasn't trolling. Unfortunatelly, people who think that citizens shouldn't be allowed opinions and believe that police should be allowed warrantless access to people and properties are basically supporting authoritarianism:

"Authoritarianism is a form of government. Juan Linz, whose 1964 description of authoritarianism is influential, characterized authoritarianism regimes as political systems characterized by four qualities: (1) "limited, not responsible, political pluralism"; that is, constraints on political institutions and groups (such as legislatures, political parties, and interest groups), (2) a basis for legitimacy based on emotion, especially the identification of the regime as a necessary evil to combat "easily recognizable societal problems" such as underdevelopment or insurgency; (3) neither "intensive nor extensive political mobilization" and constraints on the mass public (such as repressive tactics against opponents and a prohibition of antiregime activity) and (4) "formally ill-defined" executive power, often shifting or vague."

Seriously, these kind of powers are only seen in extreme regimes, including failed communist societies where citizens were restricted from moving, from owning property and from expressing opinion.

These are terrible things to support.

I will stop posting in this thread because when it reach this point I could only thinking we have been arguing against people who'd rather take power by force and govern by decree. And this is not how a democracy is supported.





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  Reply # 866880 26-Jul-2013 22:48
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turnin:... business communication and discussion of ideas.


100% agree with you there.

Imagine you email your accountant:

"Hey Steve, I'm thinking we'll put that xxxx expense down as a deduction because someone told me we can have blar blar under the act"

Steve writes back...

"ya that sounds like quite a good idea.  I'll see you at 12pm for lunch by the way, I might be a bit late".

At lunch Steve says to you "Oh that deduction you emailed me about, ya I checked section 21 of the act, it's actually a really bad idea because it's a clear breach but we can legal declare is as ddddd under section 33".

So your email trail leaves open the suggestion you're going to do something completely illegal and there is no record of your conversation with your accountant over lunch... unless you record your lunch dates?

Ok, so this example might be a bit abstract, but I often have conversations with clients about marketing ideas that are in breach of the CGA and FTA and council an appropriate direction.

I can see employment law also being issue for many folk.  I've heard people often make completely inappropriate suggestions in discussion but that doesn't mean they act on those.

We've worked hard to get telecommunications in place of face to face communication, this really challenges the decades of work we've done.




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  Reply # 866881 26-Jul-2013 22:52
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freitasm:
networkn: There is a lot less red tape (That everyone complains so bitterly about) in countries where citizens aren't allowed an opinion!


Sure. There are also a lot more people being sent to gulags or simply "disappear" in those countries too.

So you rather have less freedom if you could have less red tape?




There is no middle ground ?

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  Reply # 866883 26-Jul-2013 22:57
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networkn: There is no middle ground ?


Of course there's middle ground with consultations, and we exercise those all the time in New Zealand.

But there is no middle ground with respect to spying. 

Our government either is spying on us or it's not.


A 'little spying' is still 'spying'.







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  Reply # 866888 26-Jul-2013 23:05
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DonGould:
freitasm:
networkn: There is a lot less red tape (That everyone complains so bitterly about) in countries where citizens aren't allowed an opinion!


Sure. There are also a lot more people being sent to gulags or simply "disappear" in those countries too.

So you rather have less freedom if you could have less red tape?




I just assumed he was trolling.

I don't really understand the science in the correlation he's making.

I wonder if in .nz we pay $4b for a road, but our workers have a say on pay rates and get paid more, while in other places they have no say, they get a road for $400m but their workers also get paid accordingly and have a quality of life that goes with being paid 10% of what our workers get?

Is he suggesting that by taking away our right to speak freely then we'd have more time just to build the new roads faster at a lower cost?

I'm quite confused.






As usual you completely miss the point.

The quality of life is fine in Singapore for example (Yes you get fined for spitting OMG, and drugs are treated with the disdain they Deserve), workers are paid quite reasonable salaries, but the Government has considerable more muscle and as a result, when roads are quoted as $400M and will take 90 days to build, the road actually costs $400M and is finished on the 90th day. Unlike NZ where road is quoted as 400M and will take 2 years, costs $4B and takes 10 years. 

Of course the easy thing to do in an argument when someone opposes your view is to pick the most extreme opposite example and suggest that's what that person meant, however REASONABLE people try and understand the middle ground which is trying to be suggested. 



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  Reply # 866898 26-Jul-2013 23:11
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freitasm:
DonGould:
freitasm:
networkn: There is a lot less red tape (That everyone complains so bitterly about) in countries where citizens aren't allowed an opinion!


Sure. There are also a lot more people being sent to gulags or simply "disappear" in those countries too.

So you rather have less freedom if you could have less red tape?



I just assumed he was trolling.


No, he wasn't trolling. Unfortunatelly, people who think that citizens shouldn't be allowed opinions and believe that police should be allowed warrantless access to people and properties are basically supporting authoritarianism:

"Authoritarianism is a form of government. Juan Linz, whose 1964 description of authoritarianism is influential, characterized authoritarianism regimes as political systems characterized by four qualities: (1) "limited, not responsible, political pluralism"; that is, constraints on political institutions and groups (such as legislatures, political parties, and interest groups), (2) a basis for legitimacy based on emotion, especially the identification of the regime as a necessary evil to combat "easily recognizable societal problems" such as underdevelopment or insurgency; (3) neither "intensive nor extensive political mobilization" and constraints on the mass public (such as repressive tactics against opponents and a prohibition of antiregime activity) and (4) "formally ill-defined" executive power, often shifting or vague."

Seriously, these kind of powers are only seen in extreme regimes, including failed communist societies where citizens were restricted from moving, from owning property and from expressing opinion.

These are terrible things to support.

I will stop posting in this thread because when it reach this point I could only thinking we have been arguing against people who'd rather take power by force and govern by decree. And this is not how a democracy is supported.



Of course would you suggest I intend for NZ to become like Soviet Russia, because so much of what I say supports such a preposterous idea. /me sighs in frustration.

Of course you should take my comment and assume I meant that citizens should be allowed NO opinions, because that's the completely most reasonable way to interpret what I said.

I guess I am one of the people who thinks the Govt that I elected isn't out to get me! Passing of this bill will not turn us into a country you have just described. What benefit does the Government get by spying on me, if I am not doing anything wrong?

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  Reply # 866900 26-Jul-2013 23:14
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networkn:  Of course the easy thing to do in an argument when someone opposes your view is to pick the most extreme opposite example and suggest that's what that person meant, however REASONABLE people try and understand the middle ground which is trying to be suggested.


I have to agree with you on this point.

The problem is that Mr Key is just not listening, he's simply not being REASONABLE.

Internet New Zealand and others have made a large number of suggestions about over sight and those have just fallen on deaf ears.

Most REASONABLE people would not change the law to suite your behaviour if it was shown that you had broken the law.

You picked 'drugs' as an example.  The number of people that have been going to jail over drugs in New Zealand has been going up since National took office.  Are you suggesting the answer to that problem is to just make drugs legal and then the result will be we spend less on courts, less on jails and less on probation?






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  Reply # 866901 26-Jul-2013 23:15
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What do the following words mean:

Government?
Democracy?
The Law?
Money?
Social Contract?
Society?
Monarchy?
Security?

What words mean can have a different interpretation to each individual.

Generally there is a common interpretation between individuals on what words mean, so they can interact with each other.

I'll start with "Democracy":

Democracy is when a small set of people are elected to make rules (Statutes) for a larger set of people.

Currently In NZ 31% of the eligible voted for the current rule makers. 15.5% of those MP's were not voted in by the people (List MP's %50)

Democracy happens in NZ approximately every 3 years for one day. ~ Once every 1095 days.

You may of heard this saying "Government of the people, by the people, for the people".

NZ MP's swear an oath "I, [NAME], swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her
Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, her heirs and successors, according
to law. So help me God."

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10739532

An elected MP who does not take this oath has no standing in NZ parliament.


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  Reply # 866904 26-Jul-2013 23:22
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networkn:  The quality of life is fine in Singapore for example (Yes you get fined for spitting OMG, and drugs are treated with the disdain they Deserve)


I think you sight why the right to migrate is important.

Yes life in Singapore is different and I think that if you want that life you should be allowed to just go there and live but those rules.

Personally I'm not a drug supporter.  I can't even drink as it makes me sick and I don't smoke.

But most New Zealanders like drugs and booze in moderation.  

I'd like to see weed legal in New Zealand because that's actually what most people want.

Most people also want to keep their freedom.  The issue I see here is that most people don't actually understand that their freedom is about to be eroded by this bill.

Most people are busy being overwhelmed with other issues in their lives and just don't understand the potential of this law to have a massive impact on them in the future, and on their children.





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  Reply # 866906 26-Jul-2013 23:30
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networkn: As usual you completely miss the point.

The quality of life is fine in Singapore for example (Yes you get fined for spitting OMG, and drugs are treated with the disdain they Deserve), workers are paid quite reasonable salaries, but the Government has considerable more muscle and as a result, when roads are quoted as $400M and will take 90 days to build, the road actually costs $400M and is finished on the 90th day. Unlike NZ where road is quoted as 400M and will take 2 years, costs $4B and takes 10 years. 

Of course the easy thing to do in an argument when someone opposes your view is to pick the most extreme opposite example and suggest that's what that person meant, however REASONABLE people try and understand the middle ground which is trying to be suggested. 




Funny you should mentioned Singapore seeing as they have been cracking down hard on anti-government speech over the last few years. For more on the latest case: http://tvnz.co.nz/world-news/cartoonist-charged-singapore-cracks-down-dissent-5520030

Singapore is an awful comparison to NZ, the two countries are nothing alike.

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  Reply # 866910 26-Jul-2013 23:31
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DonGould:
But most New Zealanders like drugs and booze in moderation.  


And just when I thought you were the logical one on this thread. Thank you.

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  Reply # 866911 26-Jul-2013 23:37
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bradstewart:
DonGould:
But most New Zealanders like drugs and booze in moderation.  


And just when I thought you were the logical one on this thread. Thank you.


Sorry I'm not sure what's not logical about that comment.

Are you saying that most kiwis are anti a bit of weed and booze?

I'll agree with the suggestion that not every kiwi is pro using weed, but I know very few that won't just turn a blind eye to it.

I don't know anyone who cares about booze at all unless your driving.

I know a few folk to are anti-smoking, but even they don't care if it's not in range of them.

Interestingly, people in my area are actually more anti legal highs than weed or booze.

You can't buy legal highs around here.  The dairy won't sell the stuff...  but it's not hard to get directions to where to get weed.




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  Reply # 866912 26-Jul-2013 23:38
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DonGould:
networkn:  Of course the easy thing to do in an argument when someone opposes your view is to pick the most extreme opposite example and suggest that's what that person meant, however REASONABLE people try and understand the middle ground which is trying to be suggested.


I have to agree with you on this point.

The problem is that Mr Key is just not listening, he's simply not being REASONABLE.

Internet New Zealand and others have made a large number of suggestions about over sight and those have just fallen on deaf ears.

Most REASONABLE people would not change the law to suite your behaviour if it was shown that you had broken the law.

You picked 'drugs' as an example.  The number of people that have been going to jail over drugs in New Zealand has been going up since National took office.  Are you suggesting the answer to that problem is to just make drugs legal and then the result will be we spend less on courts, less on jails and less on probation?




Well see you are twisting what I am saying. 

A very very small number of people actually don't want this to happen, 500 people turned up in Auckland or approx .04% of the population of Auckland. I don't want ANY Government paying attention to such a small group, we are already held to random daily by people who hold views in common with tiny extremist groups. It would be different if HALF of Auckland turned up, then he should listen. Governments who don't listen to their voters get shown the door, example Labour and Antismacking legislation repeal. A lot more people cared about this and for a much better reason in my opinion.

If you think that Labour wouldn't be doing something like this (perhaps not exactly this) then you are dreaming.  There are no countries I am aware of with the freedom that NZ has for it's citizens who are not tightening its surveillance laws. 

I have no issues with drug users being in prison. How you can suggest my position suggests I'd support legalization of drugs is just another reason why I spent most of my time reading your posts and shaking my head.

Bottom line, I am a law abiding citizen, I don't believe the government I elected is "out to get me" and if they want to trawl through my personal data, and listen into my conversations, the thing I'd be pissed off about, would be the waste of valuable resources. 

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