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  Reply # 866913 26-Jul-2013 23:42
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DonGould:
networkn:  The quality of life is fine in Singapore for example (Yes you get fined for spitting OMG, and drugs are treated with the disdain they Deserve)



Most people are busy being overwhelmed with other issues in their lives and just don't understand the potential of this law to have a massive impact on them in the future, and on their children.



Explain to me how exactly (God help me) you see this having a MASSIVE Impact on them?


I'd like to see weed legal in New Zealand because that's actually what most people want.


Evidence to support your claim that 51% of people want dope legal?

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  Reply # 866915 26-Jul-2013 23:48
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networkn:  A very very small number of people actually don't want this to happen, 500 people turned up in Auckland or approx .04% of the population of Auckland.


Frankly I suspect that lots of people don't turn up because they actually believe that they can't make a difference and even if they do bother to show up then Mr Key won't listen anyway.

I suspect that most people in New Zealand don't give much care to freedom until it's to late.  I know I used to be one of those.

You wouldn't have found me on this side of this argument a decade ago.






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  Reply # 866916 26-Jul-2013 23:48
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bradstewart:
networkn: As usual you completely miss the point.

The quality of life is fine in Singapore for example (Yes you get fined for spitting OMG, and drugs are treated with the disdain they Deserve), workers are paid quite reasonable salaries, but the Government has considerable more muscle and as a result, when roads are quoted as $400M and will take 90 days to build, the road actually costs $400M and is finished on the 90th day. Unlike NZ where road is quoted as 400M and will take 2 years, costs $4B and takes 10 years. 

Of course the easy thing to do in an argument when someone opposes your view is to pick the most extreme opposite example and suggest that's what that person meant, however REASONABLE people try and understand the middle ground which is trying to be suggested. 




Funny you should mentioned Singapore seeing as they have been cracking down hard on anti-government speech over the last few years. For more on the latest case: http://tvnz.co.nz/world-news/cartoonist-charged-singapore-cracks-down-dissent-5520030

Singapore is an awful comparison to NZ, the two countries are nothing alike.


I am showing that middle ground exists between MF's examples.

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  Reply # 866917 26-Jul-2013 23:52
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I think its a case of the frog in a pot of hot water. We don't notice little changes and we feel we dont need to scrutinize every detail of every bill because we believe we live in a democracy. Geographically that's true but as has been pointed out people just a few generations back gave their lives for our freedoms. Times are changing. Fast. Humans have had privacy for as long as we can see back. Technology was always going to be a threat in that respect but if you want middleground then show me the human behavior studies that suggest how humans will behave when all their comunication is recorded. If things like prism were introduced in the late 90s I doubt the internet would have grown much at all

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  Reply # 866918 26-Jul-2013 23:54
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DonGould:
networkn:  A very very small number of people actually don't want this to happen, 500 people turned up in Auckland or approx .04% of the population of Auckland.


Frankly I suspect that lots of people don't turn up because they actually believe that they can't make a difference and even if they do bother to show up then Mr Key won't listen anyway.

I suspect that most people in New Zealand don't give much care to freedom until it's to late.  I know I used to be one of those.

You wouldn't have found me on this side of this argument a decade ago.




It's a lot easier to believe that than to accept the reality that most of us aren't really concerned. When people feel passionate about something they make themselves heard. Asset Sales and Anti Smacking as two examples. Neither made any difference to the outcome, but it shows that a lot more people cared about that, than this and in my opinion, for good reason.



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  Reply # 866920 26-Jul-2013 23:59
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networkn:  Explain to me how exactly (God help me) you see this having a MASSIVE Impact on them?


Hollywood has made any number of movies about the MASSIVE consequence of this stuff.  I really suggest spending some time at your local video store.

This stuff takes generations of hardship to unwind.

We don't have hardship in New Zealand.  We also don't have legal spying as is being proposed.

1 in 1 million people is not over sight.

No one has died to let this stuff in our doors, but how many will have to die to remove it?

That's not a risk I'm happy about for a problem that doesn't exist.






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  Reply # 866921 27-Jul-2013 00:02
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DonGould:
networkn:  Explain to me how exactly (God help me) you see this having a MASSIVE Impact on them?


Hollywood has made any number of movies about the MASSIVE consequence of this stuff.  I really suggest spending some time at your local video store.



Yet another artful dodge. Ever noticed why when asked directly what people think the impact will be of this bill, they suggest some vague reading, video watching or pass the buck?

When you can articulate CLEARLY and SUCCINCTLY what the MASSIVE impact day to day to LAW abiding citizens is, with examples (Hard Evidence) of the same consequences actually occurring in other countries SIMILAR to NZ, then we can have a discussion, until then, it's all just hot air. 

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  Reply # 866928 27-Jul-2013 00:21
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networkn:  When you can articulate CLEARLY and SUCCINCTLY what the MASSIVE impact day to day to LAW abiding citizens is, with examples (Hard Evidence) of the same consequences actually occurring in other countries SIMILAR to NZ, then we can have a discussion, until then, it's all just hot air. 


We're in a world where this technology is still very much evolving.

You're quite right that everything that Hollywood is presenting is pure speculation.

We have some idea of how to prevent speculation becoming reality.

We know the impact of society loosing freedom, roll back to the 20th century to truly understand that.

A feeling of loss of freedom has lead to war in the past.  How much more evidence do we really need that loosing freedom is bad?






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  Reply # 866931 27-Jul-2013 00:31
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DonGould:
networkn:  When you can articulate CLEARLY and SUCCINCTLY what the MASSIVE impact day to day to LAW abiding citizens is, with examples (Hard Evidence) of the same consequences actually occurring in other countries SIMILAR to NZ, then we can have a discussion, until then, it's all just hot air. 


We're in a world where this technology is still very much evolving.

You're quite right that everything that Hollywood is presenting is pure speculation.

We have some idea of how to prevent speculation becoming reality.

We know the impact of society loosing freedom, roll back to the 20th century to truly understand that.

A feeling of loss of freedom has lead to war in the past.  How much more evidence do we really need that loosing freedom is bad?




So basically now you are saying you can't provide the evidence, just guessing on Hollywoods behalf? If you worried about all the stuff that MIGHT happen, you'd never leave the house! 

Personally I think the 500 people who turned up to protest should have gone and done something productive, the impact to law abiding citizens would have been far more significant than this bill.

Also it has not passed yet.

Your comparison that this bill is equivalent to the issues that caused those wars is just nonsense.

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  Reply # 866935 27-Jul-2013 00:36
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DonGould:
bradstewart:
DonGould:
But most New Zealanders like drugs and booze in moderation.  


And just when I thought you were the logical one on this thread. Thank you.


Sorry I'm not sure what's not logical about that comment.

Are you saying that most kiwis are anti a bit of weed and booze?

I'll agree with the suggestion that not every kiwi is pro using weed, but I know very few that won't just turn a blind eye to it.

I don't know anyone who cares about booze at all unless your driving.

I know a few folk to are anti-smoking, but even they don't care if it's not in range of them.

Interestingly, people in my area are actually more anti legal highs than weed or booze.

You can't buy legal highs around here.  The dairy won't sell the stuff...  but it's not hard to get directions to where to get weed.


You made the comment... Up till then I thought your comments were reasonable enough. But seriously most NZers like drugs? I very very much doubt that.

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  Reply # 866937 27-Jul-2013 00:38
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networkn:
Also it has not passed yet.

Your comparison that this bill is equivalent to the issues that caused those wars is just nonsense.


The issue is the issues that lead to the issues that caused those wars.

Our grandparents fought for freedom which we're eroding because of fear of very very few.

I don't understand why we need to erode our freedom because of so few.

You talk of 500.

How many terrorists has New Zealand seen in the past decade?




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  Reply # 866938 27-Jul-2013 00:46
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bradstewart: But seriously most NZers like drugs? I very very much doubt that.


I said 'in moderation'.

That 'moderation' I'll agree is very different for most. 

Many would consider it to be 'yip, I tried that once', for a lot it would be 'ya I did that when I was young', for some it's 'ya at a party from time to time' and some smoke regularly.

Some parts of our community never touch weed at all.  I know I grew up and lived most of my life in that community.

But there's also a very large part of our community for which weed is a large daily part of life and they just want to keep it on the qt.

I think the same can be said for porn.  I don't know many people who talk openly about porn but I'm well aware that it makes up a massive amount of internet traffic hence the massive threads on porn filtering.

I think we're being just a little naive to think otherwise.






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  Reply # 866939 27-Jul-2013 00:47
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networkn:
DonGould:
networkn:  Explain to me how exactly (God help me) you see this having a MASSIVE Impact on them?


Hollywood has made any number of movies about the MASSIVE consequence of this stuff.  I really suggest spending some time at your local video store.



Yet another artful dodge. Ever noticed why when asked directly what people think the impact will be of this bill, they suggest some vague reading, video watching or pass the buck?

When you can articulate CLEARLY and SUCCINCTLY what the MASSIVE impact day to day to LAW abiding citizens is, with examples (Hard Evidence) of the same consequences actually occurring in other countries SIMILAR to NZ, then we can have a discussion, until then, it's all just hot air. 


That's quite ridiculous. If I proposed to ban cars and asked you to provide evidence if the massive implications with examples from countries similar to nz . Now that is an artful dodge. Show me the research to suggest people wont become reclusive under constant surveillance

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  Reply # 866940 27-Jul-2013 00:47
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DonGould:
networkn:
Also it has not passed yet.

Your comparison that this bill is equivalent to the issues that caused those wars is just nonsense.


The issue is the issues that lead to the issues that caused those wars.

Our grandparents fought for freedom which we're eroding because of fear of very very few.



Err what do you think NZ went to war over exactly? My grandparents on both sides were in those wars, I never once heard them say the reason he went to war was to prevent the government spying on the criminals in NZ.



How many terrorists has New Zealand seen in the past decade?


Who said the bill was only to capture terrorists?

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  Reply # 866941 27-Jul-2013 00:49
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networkn: Personally I think the 500 people who turned up to protest should have gone and done something productive

What are you talking about? The protest is Saturday.

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