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  Reply # 866942 27-Jul-2013 00:50
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turnin:
networkn:
DonGould:
networkn:  Explain to me how exactly (God help me) you see this having a MASSIVE Impact on them?


Hollywood has made any number of movies about the MASSIVE consequence of this stuff.  I really suggest spending some time at your local video store.



Yet another artful dodge. Ever noticed why when asked directly what people think the impact will be of this bill, they suggest some vague reading, video watching or pass the buck?

When you can articulate CLEARLY and SUCCINCTLY what the MASSIVE impact day to day to LAW abiding citizens is, with examples (Hard Evidence) of the same consequences actually occurring in other countries SIMILAR to NZ, then we can have a discussion, until then, it's all just hot air. 


That's quite ridiculous. If I proposed to ban cars and asked you to provide evidence if the massive implications with examples from countries similar to nz . Now that is an artful dodge. Show me the research to suggest people wont become reclusive under constant surveillance


Well the difference here is, cars aren't banned elsewhere, and if they were, it would be pretty evident what the impact would ACTUALLY be because there would BE hard evidence!



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  Reply # 866943 27-Jul-2013 00:55
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And....millions of individuals have not lost their privacy before so how can you determine the effect.

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  Reply # 866944 27-Jul-2013 01:02
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networkn:  Who said the bill was only to capture terrorists?


So who is it that we're trying to catch by spying on the whole population that only the PM and one or two others can know about that the courts and law abiding MPs can't know about?

Remind me again why we need this bill?

Remind me again why the PM needs these secrets?






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  Reply # 866963 27-Jul-2013 08:07
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DonGould:
networkn:  Who said the bill was only to capture terrorists?


So who is it that we're trying to catch by spying on the whole population that only the PM and one or two others can know about that the courts and law abiding MPs can't know about?

Remind me again why we need this bill?

Remind me again why the PM needs these secrets?




Spying on the "whole" population, say what now? That is a crazy notion the bottom line is the GCSB does not and will not have the resources for that. Exaggerating the problem will not help the cause, it is more likely to turn people off.




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  Reply # 866982 27-Jul-2013 09:35
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networkn:

A very very small number of people actually don't want this to happen, 500 people turned up in Auckland or approx .04% of the population of Auckland. I don't want ANY Government paying attention to such a small group, we are already held to random daily by people who hold views in common with tiny extremist groups. It would be different if HALF of Auckland turned up, then he should listen. Governments who don't listen to their voters get shown the door, example Labour and Antismacking legislation repeal. A lot more people cared about this and for a much better reason in my opinion.

 


The difference here is that the Law Society and the Human Right Commission agree with those 500 people. They are (or should be) a little harder to ignore, being made up of some of the smartest people in the country, and/or appointed for the express purpose of telling the government when it's proposing to do something illegal. In fact, there are no organisations I know of coming out in support of the bill.

There's plenty of room for middle ground; the security organisations could make a case to some impartial people (or failing that, partial people with opposing biases to keep one another in check) as to why some person or people need to be spied upon. If there is indeed a case - and it doesn't need to be watertight, just reasonable - then the spying can begin. It's a system that has worked well for hundreds of years. The internet changes things a little; so let's also assume that sometimes the security organisations get wind of something urgent (in which case, they must clearly already have other sources anyway) in which case they can have limited authority to get on with their job as long as they present themselves quickly.

I feel so sorry for those people who believe there are terrorists hiding under every rock and behind every telephone poll, just waiting to unleash death on New Zealand. It must really suck to live your whole life feeling so very scared all the time. But it's NOT REAL. We don't need to rush all this through now, making bad laws worse and guaranteeing someone in future will be a Bad Person, but in charge. We really could do it right.




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  Reply # 866989 27-Jul-2013 10:12
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SaltyNZ:
networkn:

A very very small number of people actually don't want this to happen, 500 people turned up in Auckland or approx .04% of the population of Auckland. I don't want ANY Government paying attention to such a small group, we are already held to random daily by people who hold views in common with tiny extremist groups. It would be different if HALF of Auckland turned up, then he should listen. Governments who don't listen to their voters get shown the door, example Labour and Antismacking legislation repeal. A lot more people cared about this and for a much better reason in my opinion.

 


The difference here is that the Law Society and the Human Right Commission agree with those 500 people. They are (or should be) a little harder to ignore, being made up of some of the smartest people in the country, and/or appointed for the express purpose of telling the government when it's proposing to do something illegal. In fact, there are no organisations I know of coming out in support of the bill.

There's plenty of room for middle ground; the security organisations could make a case to some impartial people (or failing that, partial people with opposing biases to keep one another in check) as to why some person or people need to be spied upon. If there is indeed a case - and it doesn't need to be watertight, just reasonable - then the spying can begin. It's a system that has worked well for hundreds of years. The internet changes things a little; so let's also assume that sometimes the security organisations get wind of something urgent (in which case, they must clearly already have other sources anyway) in which case they can have limited authority to get on with their job as long as they present themselves quickly.

I feel so sorry for those people who believe there are terrorists hiding under every rock and behind every telephone poll, just waiting to unleash death on New Zealand. It must really suck to live your whole life feeling so very scared all the time. But it's NOT REAL. We don't need to rush all this through now, making bad laws worse and guaranteeing someone in future will be a Bad Person, but in charge. We really could do it right.


The problem where you have two parties with equal power and opposing views is that NOTHING EVER GETS DONE. Look at the US now. I am saying it might be nice to have some additional oversight, but largely I believe people are screaming the sky is falling when it's just not. There are people in this thread suggesting that John Key wants to spy on every single person, which isn't what these amendments are at all. It's just insane to think the Government would expend those sort of resources without good reason. At the end of the day eventually the government will change and the people who made those laws will be governed by them, themselves, if it was terribly harmful, why would they do it? 

Despite what most people seem to think, the Government has what it believes is our best interests in play as did the Government before it and the one before that. I am not saying mistakes aren't made, but people really need to shift their focus a little I think.

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  Reply # 866994 27-Jul-2013 10:39
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networkn:

Despite what most people seem to think, the Government has what it believes is our best interests in play as did the Government before it and the one before that. I am not saying mistakes aren't made, but people really need to shift their focus a little I think.


Yes, but that's the problem. It's not that I don't trust John Key (although I don't; his behaviour makes it very difficult, veering as it does from the hypocritical 'how you dare you tape me having a conversation in a public place', to the bumbling 'oh, I totally forgot about authorising that', to the arrogant 'well, if the HRC dares to do it's job and disagree with me I'll just defund them') it's that I don't know who is going to come after John Key, or after that. And all of those people will probably start off believing they're doing the right thing too. But by then it will be too late to tell them no.

You seem to understand people make mistakes. Why don't you think it's a good idea to take a breath, listen to all the experts, and make sure the checks and balances are in place to detect and correct them?

If there were some sort of imminent threat to our existence, then the PM has already given away that he knows about it to the people in charge of it by saying that he can't wait to get this law through because BAD PEOPLE ARE HERE. That alone will be enough to make them pause, and if it isn't, then there's no harm in him coming out and saying so anyway. There are four and a half million of us here. I'm pretty sure they're out-numbered. Either way there is no good reason to ram through a bad law in such haste.





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  Reply # 867003 27-Jul-2013 11:35
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http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/8972056/Bags-full-of-drugs-seized-at-schools

For those of you who thought that my comments last night were a bit bonkers.

The suggestion that kiwi's don't have a love affair with weed is just bonkers.

Now let's return to our regular program...





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  Reply # 867005 27-Jul-2013 11:38
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SaltyNZ:  ...I don't know who is going to come after John Key, or after that.


Ok that's a point I hadn't even begun to consider.

So you're saying we should be concerned about what powers we're setting the leaders of our grandchildren up with.






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  Reply # 867007 27-Jul-2013 11:43
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networkn: Despite what most people seem to think, the Government has what it believes is our best interests in play as did the Government before it and the one before that. I am not saying mistakes aren't made, but people really need to shift their focus a little I think.


I 100% agree this, but just with a different focus to yours.

I think most people agree that the government does believe it has our best interests in play.

Most people also agree that governments just make mistakes all the time - WINZ, ACCC, EQC, CERA just do name four departments with security breaches in the past year.

I agree with you that people need to shift their focus a little.

People need to start caring about this stuff and not just thinking that a small bunch of government officials can provide the protection of our freedom that our grandparents fought for.





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  Reply # 867010 27-Jul-2013 11:54
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DonGould:
SaltyNZ:  ...I don't know who is going to come after John Key, or after that.


Ok that's a point I hadn't even begun to consider.

So you're saying we should be concerned about what powers we're setting the leaders of our grandchildren up with.




In a nutshell, yes.




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  Reply # 867014 27-Jul-2013 12:13
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KiwiNZ:  Spying on the "whole" population, say what now? That is a crazy notion the bottom line is the GCSB does not and will not have the resources for that. Exaggerating the problem will not help the cause, it is more likely to turn people off.


This is why HTTPS encryption is now 2048 bit.

We don't have the power to crack that right now.  But we do have the power to record it and store it until we do have that power.

Moore's law tells us about power.

What we're talking about today is the business of putting the laws in place to enable these bad things.

We've already seen GSCB heads admit that they just 'use' the rules and bend them to fit what they want to do.

This is the whole point here.  We need to put a stop to this before it gets out of hand.






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  Reply # 867072 27-Jul-2013 15:15
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well, there are literally thousands of people protesting in Auckland and I believe Wellington is similar. Looks like people really don't want to have their lives recorded by governments. Who would have thought.  

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  Reply # 867074 27-Jul-2013 15:28
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turnin: well, there are literally thousands of people protesting in Auckland and I believe Wellington is similar. Looks like people really don't want to have their lives recorded by governments. Who would have thought.  



and in chc. I'm there right now.




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  Reply # 867076 27-Jul-2013 15:39
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networkn: Well see you are twisting what I am saying. 

A very very small number of people actually don't want this to happen, 500 people turned up in Auckland or approx .04% of the population of Auckland. I don't want ANY Government paying attention to such a small group, we are already held to random daily by people who hold views in common with tiny extremist groups. It would be different if HALF of Auckland turned up, then he should listen.


Let's see who is twisting what then. You posted the above 26th July 23:38, half a day BEFORE the manifestations. So your nnumber of "500" is coming from nowhere but your imagination - unless you could see the future, which I doubt.

This more like the reality though:












Talk about twisting...




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