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  Reply # 873040 7-Aug-2013 10:43
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Dratsab:

It's an ongoing problem. Regular overnight patrols by passing security guards/police would be sufficient to prevent this. Installing lights would be ideal as well - in this day and age there's no excuse for following CPTED principles.


How about setting up some hidden cameras. Catching them read handed. And using that evidence in court to put them away for a long long time???



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  Reply # 873049 7-Aug-2013 10:53
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Klipspringer:

That aside. Public video cameras detour crime yes. But that does not catch the criminals. It just moves criminals somewhere else, ie to the next cemetery.




Public video cameras don't stop people committing crimes either. Every other week there's a 'New Zealand's stupidest burglar' video doing the rounds.




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  Reply # 873051 7-Aug-2013 10:56
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SaltyNZ:
Klipspringer:

That aside. Public video cameras detour crime yes. But that does not catch the criminals. It just moves criminals somewhere else, ie to the next cemetery.




Public video cameras don't stop people committing crimes either. Every other week there's a 'New Zealand's stupidest burglar' video doing the rounds.


Point is the stupid ones are the ones that get court. The ones that can't read the "cameras operating here" signs.

Hidden cameras would catch a different bread of criminal.

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  Reply # 873056 7-Aug-2013 11:09
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Klipspringer: And the mechanisms you proposing are setting up cameras. Spying!!!!


Rubbish. Monitoring of a public space where ongoing crime is a known problem. Perfectly legal. Councils worldwide have been doing it for years.

Klipspringer: Camera "spying" is currently illegal in many cases. Once again lets go back to the Tami Iti trial. The camera evidence was deemed illegal and was not allowed to be used as evidence in the court. So he got off on a light sentence. Despite the fact he was planning "WAR" against New Zealand. (And there was proof of that)

This example is proof that the police have their hands tied in many cases. They therefore DON'T have the powers.


You're getting confused between monitoring public spaces and gathering information on specific individuals. These two things are polar opposites.

Klipspringer: That aside. Public video cameras detour crime yes. But that does not catch the criminals. It just moves criminals somewhere else, ie to the next cemetery.


Deterrance: Minimal. Experience in Wellington's CBD has shown that cameras have made hardly a jot of difference to deterring violent crime. Up until recently, offending rates in Wellington's Courtenay Place precinct were roughly the same as pre-camera installations. Wellington's population is not a unique species in this country so you can guarantee this is same across all centres. Why do you think police are undergoing such a massive re-rostering program at the moment? It's all about trying to get numbers on the street during "peak" times. In high visibility vests for the visual deterrant factor.

Apprehension: Arguable. CCTV has been used very effectively to prove certain people were in certain places at certain times, especially with those who [initially] deny being there.

Displacement: Heavily debated in criminology circles. Have a read of this.

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  Reply # 873060 7-Aug-2013 11:20
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Dratsab:
Klipspringer: And the mechanisms you proposing are setting up cameras. Spying!!!!


Rubbish. Monitoring of a public space where ongoing crime is a known problem. Perfectly legal. Councils worldwide have been doing it for years.


YES. With big signs warning the criminals that cameras are operating in the area.

Dratsab:
Klipspringer: Camera "spying" is currently illegal in many cases. Once again lets go back to the Tami Iti trial. The camera evidence was deemed illegal and was not allowed to be used as evidence in the court. So he got off on a light sentence. Despite the fact he was planning "WAR" against New Zealand. (And there was proof of that)

This example is proof that the police have their hands tied in many cases. They therefore DON'T have the powers.


You're getting confused between monitoring public spaces and gathering information on specific individuals. These two things are polar opposites.


The bill will give police the powers to put cameras up wherever they think is necessary. As far as I know, even hidden cameras, on private property. (The "illegal" evidence they had on Tami Iti)




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  Reply # 873070 7-Aug-2013 11:26
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Klipspringer: The bill will give police the powers to put cameras up wherever they think is necessary. As far as I know, even hidden cameras, on private property. (The unlawful evidence they had on Tami Iti) 


Fixed :-)

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  Reply # 873073 7-Aug-2013 11:28
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Dratsab:
Klipspringer: The bill will give police the powers to put cameras up wherever they think is necessary. As far as I know, even hidden cameras, on private property. (The unlawful evidence they had on Tami Iti) 


Fixed :-)


In a few days from now ....
The legal evidence :-)))

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  Reply # 873080 7-Aug-2013 11:38
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As far as I understand, The Telecommunications (Interception Capability and Security) Bill is the thing that everybody is up in arms about. It replaces the current Telecommunications (Interception Capability) Act of 2004.

The Telecommunications (Interception Capability and Security) Bill accompanies the current GCSB bill.

Why are people marching against the GCSB bill? Surely this is proof enough that half the people marching have no idea what they are really marching for????

Anybody know when there is a march against the Telecommunications (Interception Capability and Security) Bill? Or have I missed it?

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  Reply # 873105 7-Aug-2013 12:09
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Because the GCSB Bill allows the Prime Minister to issue warrants so that the agency can then proceed with surveillance over New Zealand citizens and permanent residents, complementing surveillance capabilities of other agencies (police, SIS), providing results to whoever the minister appoints, including national or overseas personnel and agencies.




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  Reply # 873107 7-Aug-2013 12:11
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Woolly: I was told cameras on private property overlooking the street need to have a sign up. Why this would be the case, I don't know.

A manager looking over employees shoulders every five minutes doesn't induce a happy work environment. Once in a while they might catch employees on Geekzone. ;)




Really? 

Do I need a sign up that I might be looking out my window?

What language does the sign need to be in?

Is the camera being visible not enough?

What are the standards for the sign?

Does is have to be registered with anyone?

Can I download the required artwork from a government web site?






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  Reply # 873111 7-Aug-2013 12:14
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KiwiNZ: If the GCSB Bill can help find scum like this then pass it now

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/9010167/Chairs-vandalism-sickening


This could be fixed by just putting up a bunch of publicly visible camera that we can all log on to.

That's what we're doing in our neighborhood.  We can all look at the cameras and if any of us sees a problem when we sort it out. 

Really useful to see when trucks turn up to deliver stuff, check if the people we want to meet are there, lots and lots of benefits.






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  Reply # 873112 7-Aug-2013 12:14
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Employeers looking over employees is the norm these days. I know a large system integrator monitored emails even back in the 90s. It's usually part of the agreement employees have to sign as "acceptable Internet use policies".

Being private and something you know it's going to happen, I have no problem with that. You'd be dumb to use company email systems and time to conduct private business.




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  Reply # 873125 7-Aug-2013 12:15
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SaltyNZ: Of course all these conversations are missing two very important points. Even if the GCSB were suddenly barred from doing all this, and there was oversight with enough teeth that we could be confident they really weren't, there is still the matter that 90% of our internet goes directly to the US. Some goes to Australia. The cables at both those ends are monitored.

Secondly the GCSB might be barred from spying, but nothing has been said about the SIS. They *are* the internal surveillance agency. The TICS bill doesn't really address the SIS at all; it hands the increased powers to the GCSB. I think they're a bit more tightly bound than the GCSB though.


Salt those points aren't lost on me at all.

It's one of many different reasons that I've expressed we should have other cables to Australia.






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  Reply # 873130 7-Aug-2013 12:22
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freitasm: You rather trade an entire nation's privacy right for police finding some idiot who turned chairs upside down?

That's a high price to pay to extend something the police is already empowered to do.


100% agree with you MF.

You lot don't even live here, I do.  To me that mess is just a bunch of chairs with bugger all meaning and value.

I didn't even know what it was until my wife explained because she'd read about it in the paper.

I think you're totally right that we don't change the law to disrespect everyone's privacy just because some twat disrespected a bunch of chairs that were put there as a memorial for a bunch of other people.

My brother got killed last year.  He was on a bike.  You don't see me running around saying that we should be putting spy equipment in every car and on every road because on of the horses on the farm did a dump on the bit of grass that we spread some ashes....  ya, even writing that I do realise just how stupid my analogy sounds.

To me stupid is what this is about.  It's a total over reaction to suggest we spy on the whole country because some idiot deface a memorial.

Let's just throw my phone number on a sign down there and if someone sees the chairs turned over, I'm not far away, let them call me and I'll go help stand them back up again.  03 348 7235.

D




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  Reply # 873149 7-Aug-2013 12:32
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freitasm: Employeers looking over employees is the norm these days. I know a large system integrator monitored emails even back in the 90s. It's usually part of the agreement employees have to sign as "acceptable Internet use policies".

Being private and something you know it's going to happen, I have no problem with that. You'd be dumb to use company email systems and time to conduct private business.


Whole world of different issues going on here though.

Companies and government agencies started that sort of monitoring because of the massive amount of system abuse that staff imposed and it was just the quickest and fastest way to address a problem that should never have been.

People sending porn and jokes and abuse though the mail systems all day and thinking it's just a joke.

I recall a case where a receptionist called a senior manager a dick for hiring these disabled people to work and wanting to give them a go.  She sent the message to the whole orginisation thinking she'd just emailed a friend.  She didn't get fired, but left eventually anyway, but the manager was very hurt and a lot less interested in helping disabled people in the end.

I see that this is the flip side to this stuff and I wonder if more and more people are seeing the wrong they've done and the abuse they've used these systems for and are now a lot more interested in change than privacy and security.





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