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119 posts

Master Geek
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  Reply # 875475 11-Aug-2013 20:25
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Hi Don, All good points. The budget for GCSB is about ~60M so should give good protection for your valuables.

One wee small problem, the officers don't swear an oath to protect or serve the people of New Zealand. Nor do the police, military, MP's or any other government agencies.

The oath:
I, ..., swear that I will be faithful and
bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Her
heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God.

If you ever wondered why some popular protests, referendum's and petitions are ignored, this is why.

Colour of Law is an interesting topic to research http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_%28law%29

Sovereign State is another one.

Keith Locke has a very large file on him.

Stephen Wilce another skeleton best forgotten.

Someone I know had a joint operation with S^I@S. Afterwards the  words "organize", "pissup", "brewery", and "bunch" something to do with circus actors were used.

In Welly during the 70's people knew who the local "circus actor" was in the neighborhood.

It'll be interesting to see how all this plays out.

On a lighter note: Car Jacking
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mU3sfS9rjSk

Research Boston Brakes.

I'm not religious but these words seem to sit right with me "Do unto others as you would have them do to you"


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  Reply # 875567 12-Aug-2013 07:11
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More good reasons not to have wholesale spying: the spies just aren't very good.




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These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.


BDFL - Memuneh
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  Reply # 875576 12-Aug-2013 07:52
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SaltyNZ: More good reasons not to have wholesale spying: the spies just aren't very good.


From the article:


n January 1991, as the Gulf War began, MI5 became convinced they had discovered a secret Iraqi terror organisation based in Britain.

They had found a list of thirty three Iraqis who were studying for PhDs in London. The list had been sent by the Iraq embassy in London to the Bank of England to ask the Bank not to freeze the grants the students lived on. The Bank sent the list to MI5 and the agents quickly realised that actually they were looking at something far worse - a nationwide Iraqi military terror cell.

The reason they knew this was because the person who sent the list was the deputy military attache at the embassy.

Immediately the police were told to swoop on the 33 "students" - and they were taken to a disused military camp at Rollestone in the middle of Salisbury plain and interned as prisoners of war. They were surrounded by two levels of high security razor wire and guarded by a hundred heavily armed soldiers.

It was the first time anyone had been held like this in Britain since the Second World War.

In fact the letter showed nothing of the kind. The Iraqi military attache was also in charge of administering student grants for Iraqis studying in Britain.

Some of them did get funding from the Iraqi military - for studying things like the structure of polymers. But, as a British professor pointed out, if that same interpretation were applied to British science students, over half of them would be immediately re-classified as terrorists.

An inquiry was held later that year into the scandal. It asked MI5 to produce its evidence. Other than the letter, the secret agents came up with nothing.

They had imagined the whole thing. But they justified it by saying

"It was best to err on the side of caution".


This reminds me of The Power of Nightmares where it's shown politicians use fear, through FUD to achieve things they need. Basically they create enemies, namely communism and extremism then use that to advance policies. Very interesting three part series produced by BBC.





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  Reply # 875668 12-Aug-2013 10:37
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freitasm: This reminds me of The Power of Nightmares where it's shown politicians use fear, through FUD to achieve things they need. Basically they create enemies, namely communism and extremism then use that to advance policies. Very interesting three part series produced by BBC.


Exactly what John Key is doing now with his "Al Qaeda have infiltrated New Zealand" and "No one will ever let us host an international sporting event again if we don't" campaign. Pure FUD.




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  Reply # 875682 12-Aug-2013 10:49
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Woolly: Hi Don, All good points. The budget for GCSB is about ~60M so should give good protection for your valuables.


pffft... I don't care about my valuables, those are covered under insurance... oh crap, thanks Woolly, you just made me realise I'm paying 4 times...


  1. Police

  2. GCSB

  3. AlarmNZ

  4. Insurance


But what I really care about is the terror imposed on my family and myself.

When my car got stolen I was without my own vehicle for over a month and now I feel my space has been invaded.

I can't just leave my stuff in a locked car outside the front of my house.  Really?!

At the same time we've paying people in Wellington to sit on twitter and watch for people posting about fire storms a world away.  Fire storms that it's questionable if we should even be involved in while we have such levels of crime and poverty in our own country.

How about the government monitor my alarm system, freeing up the cash I pay my alarm company to pay for an alarm for my car and a video camera pointing out the window at it...  which they can also monitor when the alarm goes off!




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  Reply # 875689 12-Aug-2013 10:52
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FUD is rife in both camps and would seem a prerequisite in this type of debate.

Personally I believe it is all a storm in a tea cup and life as we know it will go on, each and everyone of us will wake each day not changed and no spooks under the bed. 




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The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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  Reply # 875696 12-Aug-2013 11:03
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KiwiNZ: Personally I believe it is all a storm in a tea cup and life as we know it will go on, each and everyone of us will wake each day not changed and no spooks under the bed. 


I have little doubt the government will spy on us one way or another, as is clearly happening in the US. The key difference I see however is that this law basically makes that currently illegal spying legal.

If the government wants to spy on you now, they can't really use anything they find as evidence against you without incriminating themselves. This law will not only change that fact, but makes the requirements for obtaining that legal permission for spying more relaxed than is required to balance the right to privacy, freedom of speech and freedom of the press with the genuine need to detect and monitor threats to our country.

(I think) Most people here are not suggesting we don't need the GCSB, or there should be no circumstances in which a New Zealander can be spied on, but to make sure that there are appropriate checks and balances in place to protect our other civil liberties and human rights from abuse by those in power.




Twitter: ajobbins


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  Reply # 875714 12-Aug-2013 11:16
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ajobbins:  (I think) Most people here are not suggesting we don't need the GCSB, or there should be no circumstances in which a New Zealander can be spied on, but to make sure that there are appropriate checks and balances in place to protect our other civil liberties and human rights from abuse by those in power.


The more and more I read about this stuff the more and more I disagree.

We don't need the GCSB at all.

The media have made it very clear that:

* They spy on people for no gain.
* They cost us $60m a year to do the above.
* The checks and balances don't work now.

The GCSB seem to 'do' and then 'say sorry' later.  They don't seem to understand the need to educate the population about the value of what they do.

Personally I have no confidence at all that we actually need to be paying these people to exist.

So sorry AJ but I just don't agree with you at present.






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Master Geek
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  Reply # 875818 12-Aug-2013 13:17
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Folding Option
Keith Locke former Greens MP is suggesting folding GCSB and SIS into the Police.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10905601
The police weren't happy having revenue collectors dumped on them, so not sure what they'd think of this.

Penalty Option
Another option put forward by someone was GCSB's budget gets cut for each case of unwarranted spying.
If it was the NSA they'd end up on a shoe string.

The Prototype Option
All those MP's in support of the GCSB bill. Get free Google Glasses with extra large batteries and the latest smartphone.
A free website and free full spectrum surveillance for 6 months published to their website.
Public already have it, Facebook.

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Master Geek
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  Reply # 875918 12-Aug-2013 15:50
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From the government handbook.

Yes Minister Series 2 Episode 3 "The Death List" 30mins
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIyFColD18c


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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 876783 13-Aug-2013 22:10
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Anyone interested in seeing some billboards and posters up? Here's a PledgeMe link.

They've already met their target, but any extra will go on billboards in other towns, more posters, etc.

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  Reply # 876789 13-Aug-2013 22:38
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PaulBags: Anyone interested in seeing some billboards and posters up? Here's a PledgeMe link.

They've already met their target, but any extra will go on billboards in other towns, more posters, etc.


And if the bill fails ...

Tracy Watkins at Stuff reports:

The surveillance capabilities of police, the Security Intelligence Service and Defence Force will be beefed up if controversial spy legislation falls over, Prime Minister John Key says.


This is what some people overlook. Those agencies all have legal authority to intercept communications if they get (for Police and SIS anyway) a warrant for it.

What is being proposed is that the GCSB can continue to do the actual interception on their behalf as they have the expertise. If the bill fails, it won’t mean a single less domestic interception. It will just mean interception infrastructure will be duplicated and exist in multiple agencies, rather than one.

That’s not to say there are not some changes that can be made to the bill.


Either way. Legal interception is coming. 


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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 876791 13-Aug-2013 22:58
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/03/teen-jailed-facebook-comment-justin-carter-suicide-watch_n_3542770.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular

Teenager jailed, for a hrmless facebook comment,  guess thats ok, nothing wrong with the system, she'll be right

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  Reply # 876792 13-Aug-2013 23:00
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I am surprised that National voters are happy to give this power to a Labour PM... or are they just thinking Labour will never make it back into power?




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