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11831 posts

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  Reply # 880180 17-Aug-2013 17:14
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KiwiNZ:
Geektastic:
KiwiNZ:
Geektastic:
sdav:
Geektastic:
sdav:
Geektastic:
sdav:
Geektastic:

I'm not 100% convinced by democracy myself: it gives votes to idiots, which is a bad thing. The modern world is far too complex and the cost of rectifying economic mistakes far too great for people who can barely string a sentence together to be allowed an equal say in what happens. At the very least, a 'Voting Licence' should be required, for which you must sit a test to demonstrate a reasonable grasp of economics, foreign policy and so on. Passing a more stringent version of the licence test should be required before you can stand for election, too.


Hmmm I know what you mean but No! Instead of giving votes to only to the "educated" you are better educating everyone equally in the first place.

The reason I don't jump on the band wagon and criticise the government at every opportunity is I know the world is more complex than I will ever (and sometimes care to) understand. I think the current state of mis-information and half truth politics to undermine whoever is in power just for the sake of it is more damaging and gets the country nowhere. The Greens are the worst at it I think. OT again... I'll leave it there!


How can you educate everyone equally? My IQ is almost 140. How can you educate someone whose IQ is say 90 equally to me? How can you educate me equally to someone whose IQ is say 180?

Some people are just stupid. They should not be allowed to vote unless they can prove that they understand what they are being asked to vote on. Otherwise it is too easy for politicians to bribe them with cheaper petrol/beer/fags/houses (insert the bribe du jour here) because they are unable to extrapolate the consequences of what they are being offered.

We expect people to demonstrate minimum levels of skill and understanding when they want to drive a car: why not when they decide on our collective future?


I didn't mean you should educate everyone equally to the same level (poor choice of word on my part). How would that even work? I was meaning you are best to educate all people properly to a decent level in the first place. At no point during school did we get taught how to run a budget or what politics even was. These things should be basic skills and not just taught in specialised classes. I picked up all these things on my own as well as having parents that took an active interest in my education and life in general. Not everyone has this.

People just have different views on politics and what matters to them due to circumstance. How can you so easily compare your intelligence
to someone else's and decide how they vote is right or wrong? I make far more effort than most people I know when I vote - reading through most, but not all policies of parties that interest me (but as a serious, intelligent voter you would consider all your options right?). I also know that it is pretty much rendered irrelevant by someone voting for their mum or dad's party without even knowing who the party leader is but it doesn't matter to me, it's their vote. 

And how do you even begin to measure someone's ability to vote? Do you have to pass a test covering all the ministries in NZ? That's just absurd.

But like I already said, I feel your frustrations and feel like some people's votes are a waste. But who am I to judge what is important to them?

Edit to delete a wild copy and paste...


I'm not suggesting that your approach is wrong - the Voter Test could easily be something you take at 18 with whatever other exams they do in NZ at that age. My point is that demonstrating you understand at least to a reasonable level how governments work, how state finances, taxation and so on work should be a prerequisite for being allowed the privilege to affect their outcomes.

For example, if a politician says to you on your doorstep "I can guarantee that if you vote for me/my party your weekly beers will cost 50% less because we will cut beer tax!" you should at least have demonstrated you will be informed enough to say "And how will you replace the tax income you loose from doing that?" instead of just saying "Chur bro! Sounds pretty sweet aye!"


I think we agree on the same thing in principle just disagree that you lose your right to vote by failing a test.

Demonstrating that you understand how governments work, how state finances, taxation work etc should be part of education at a very young age. But then how do you stop the inevitable criticism of the government in power controlling young minds etc...


You don't lose your right to vote by failing the test. Like driving, you gain your right to vote by passing the test - you have no right to lose until you have done that.


possibly the silliest notion I have seen on these forums 


You think it silly that idiots ought not to have a say in what happens to you and your family? Interesting.


universal suffrage is a basic human right. 


If you say so.

I'm merely suggesting that it should be a qualified right to prevent those too stupid to exercise it properly from ruining economies with their stupidity.





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  Reply # 880184 17-Aug-2013 17:19
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Geektastic:
KiwiNZ:
Geektastic:
KiwiNZ:
Geektastic:
sdav:
Geektastic:
sdav:
Geektastic:
sdav:
Geektastic:

I'm not 100% convinced by democracy myself: it gives votes to idiots, which is a bad thing. The modern world is far too complex and the cost of rectifying economic mistakes far too great for people who can barely string a sentence together to be allowed an equal say in what happens. At the very least, a 'Voting Licence' should be required, for which you must sit a test to demonstrate a reasonable grasp of economics, foreign policy and so on. Passing a more stringent version of the licence test should be required before you can stand for election, too.


Hmmm I know what you mean but No! Instead of giving votes to only to the "educated" you are better educating everyone equally in the first place.

The reason I don't jump on the band wagon and criticise the government at every opportunity is I know the world is more complex than I will ever (and sometimes care to) understand. I think the current state of mis-information and half truth politics to undermine whoever is in power just for the sake of it is more damaging and gets the country nowhere. The Greens are the worst at it I think. OT again... I'll leave it there!


How can you educate everyone equally? My IQ is almost 140. How can you educate someone whose IQ is say 90 equally to me? How can you educate me equally to someone whose IQ is say 180?

Some people are just stupid. They should not be allowed to vote unless they can prove that they understand what they are being asked to vote on. Otherwise it is too easy for politicians to bribe them with cheaper petrol/beer/fags/houses (insert the bribe du jour here) because they are unable to extrapolate the consequences of what they are being offered.

We expect people to demonstrate minimum levels of skill and understanding when they want to drive a car: why not when they decide on our collective future?


I didn't mean you should educate everyone equally to the same level (poor choice of word on my part). How would that even work? I was meaning you are best to educate all people properly to a decent level in the first place. At no point during school did we get taught how to run a budget or what politics even was. These things should be basic skills and not just taught in specialised classes. I picked up all these things on my own as well as having parents that took an active interest in my education and life in general. Not everyone has this.

People just have different views on politics and what matters to them due to circumstance. How can you so easily compare your intelligence
to someone else's and decide how they vote is right or wrong? I make far more effort than most people I know when I vote - reading through most, but not all policies of parties that interest me (but as a serious, intelligent voter you would consider all your options right?). I also know that it is pretty much rendered irrelevant by someone voting for their mum or dad's party without even knowing who the party leader is but it doesn't matter to me, it's their vote. 

And how do you even begin to measure someone's ability to vote? Do you have to pass a test covering all the ministries in NZ? That's just absurd.

But like I already said, I feel your frustrations and feel like some people's votes are a waste. But who am I to judge what is important to them?

Edit to delete a wild copy and paste...


I'm not suggesting that your approach is wrong - the Voter Test could easily be something you take at 18 with whatever other exams they do in NZ at that age. My point is that demonstrating you understand at least to a reasonable level how governments work, how state finances, taxation and so on work should be a prerequisite for being allowed the privilege to affect their outcomes.

For example, if a politician says to you on your doorstep "I can guarantee that if you vote for me/my party your weekly beers will cost 50% less because we will cut beer tax!" you should at least have demonstrated you will be informed enough to say "And how will you replace the tax income you loose from doing that?" instead of just saying "Chur bro! Sounds pretty sweet aye!"


I think we agree on the same thing in principle just disagree that you lose your right to vote by failing a test.

Demonstrating that you understand how governments work, how state finances, taxation work etc should be part of education at a very young age. But then how do you stop the inevitable criticism of the government in power controlling young minds etc...


You don't lose your right to vote by failing the test. Like driving, you gain your right to vote by passing the test - you have no right to lose until you have done that.


possibly the silliest notion I have seen on these forums 


You think it silly that idiots ought not to have a say in what happens to you and your family? Interesting.


universal suffrage is a basic human right. 


If you say so.

I'm merely suggesting that it should be a qualified right to prevent those too stupid to exercise it properly from ruining economies with their stupidity.


continuing your silly game I would suggest  that if these people denied the basic right to vote they would not have to pay tax. No representation no taxation.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


11831 posts

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  Reply # 880190 17-Aug-2013 17:32
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KiwiNZ:
Geektastic:
KiwiNZ:
Geektastic:
KiwiNZ:
Geektastic:
sdav:
Geektastic:
sdav:
Geektastic:
sdav:
Geektastic:

I'm not 100% convinced by democracy myself: it gives votes to idiots, which is a bad thing. The modern world is far too complex and the cost of rectifying economic mistakes far too great for people who can barely string a sentence together to be allowed an equal say in what happens. At the very least, a 'Voting Licence' should be required, for which you must sit a test to demonstrate a reasonable grasp of economics, foreign policy and so on. Passing a more stringent version of the licence test should be required before you can stand for election, too.


Hmmm I know what you mean but No! Instead of giving votes to only to the "educated" you are better educating everyone equally in the first place.

The reason I don't jump on the band wagon and criticise the government at every opportunity is I know the world is more complex than I will ever (and sometimes care to) understand. I think the current state of mis-information and half truth politics to undermine whoever is in power just for the sake of it is more damaging and gets the country nowhere. The Greens are the worst at it I think. OT again... I'll leave it there!


How can you educate everyone equally? My IQ is almost 140. How can you educate someone whose IQ is say 90 equally to me? How can you educate me equally to someone whose IQ is say 180?

Some people are just stupid. They should not be allowed to vote unless they can prove that they understand what they are being asked to vote on. Otherwise it is too easy for politicians to bribe them with cheaper petrol/beer/fags/houses (insert the bribe du jour here) because they are unable to extrapolate the consequences of what they are being offered.

We expect people to demonstrate minimum levels of skill and understanding when they want to drive a car: why not when they decide on our collective future?


I didn't mean you should educate everyone equally to the same level (poor choice of word on my part). How would that even work? I was meaning you are best to educate all people properly to a decent level in the first place. At no point during school did we get taught how to run a budget or what politics even was. These things should be basic skills and not just taught in specialised classes. I picked up all these things on my own as well as having parents that took an active interest in my education and life in general. Not everyone has this.

People just have different views on politics and what matters to them due to circumstance. How can you so easily compare your intelligence
to someone else's and decide how they vote is right or wrong? I make far more effort than most people I know when I vote - reading through most, but not all policies of parties that interest me (but as a serious, intelligent voter you would consider all your options right?). I also know that it is pretty much rendered irrelevant by someone voting for their mum or dad's party without even knowing who the party leader is but it doesn't matter to me, it's their vote. 

And how do you even begin to measure someone's ability to vote? Do you have to pass a test covering all the ministries in NZ? That's just absurd.

But like I already said, I feel your frustrations and feel like some people's votes are a waste. But who am I to judge what is important to them?

Edit to delete a wild copy and paste...


I'm not suggesting that your approach is wrong - the Voter Test could easily be something you take at 18 with whatever other exams they do in NZ at that age. My point is that demonstrating you understand at least to a reasonable level how governments work, how state finances, taxation and so on work should be a prerequisite for being allowed the privilege to affect their outcomes.

For example, if a politician says to you on your doorstep "I can guarantee that if you vote for me/my party your weekly beers will cost 50% less because we will cut beer tax!" you should at least have demonstrated you will be informed enough to say "And how will you replace the tax income you loose from doing that?" instead of just saying "Chur bro! Sounds pretty sweet aye!"


I think we agree on the same thing in principle just disagree that you lose your right to vote by failing a test.

Demonstrating that you understand how governments work, how state finances, taxation work etc should be part of education at a very young age. But then how do you stop the inevitable criticism of the government in power controlling young minds etc...


You don't lose your right to vote by failing the test. Like driving, you gain your right to vote by passing the test - you have no right to lose until you have done that.


possibly the silliest notion I have seen on these forums 


You think it silly that idiots ought not to have a say in what happens to you and your family? Interesting.


universal suffrage is a basic human right. 


If you say so.

I'm merely suggesting that it should be a qualified right to prevent those too stupid to exercise it properly from ruining economies with their stupidity.


continuing your silly game I would suggest  that if these people denied the basic right to vote they would not have to pay tax. No representation no taxation.


Fair enough - most of them probably earn very little and pay almost nothing anyway. 





12899 posts

Uber Geek
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  Reply # 880191 17-Aug-2013 17:36
Send private message

Geektastic:
KiwiNZ:
Geektastic:
KiwiNZ:
Geektastic:
KiwiNZ:
Geektastic:
sdav:
Geektastic:
sdav:
Geektastic:
sdav:
Geektastic:

I'm not 100% convinced by democracy myself: it gives votes to idiots, which is a bad thing. The modern world is far too complex and the cost of rectifying economic mistakes far too great for people who can barely string a sentence together to be allowed an equal say in what happens. At the very least, a 'Voting Licence' should be required, for which you must sit a test to demonstrate a reasonable grasp of economics, foreign policy and so on. Passing a more stringent version of the licence test should be required before you can stand for election, too.


Hmmm I know what you mean but No! Instead of giving votes to only to the "educated" you are better educating everyone equally in the first place.

The reason I don't jump on the band wagon and criticise the government at every opportunity is I know the world is more complex than I will ever (and sometimes care to) understand. I think the current state of mis-information and half truth politics to undermine whoever is in power just for the sake of it is more damaging and gets the country nowhere. The Greens are the worst at it I think. OT again... I'll leave it there!


How can you educate everyone equally? My IQ is almost 140. How can you educate someone whose IQ is say 90 equally to me? How can you educate me equally to someone whose IQ is say 180?

Some people are just stupid. They should not be allowed to vote unless they can prove that they understand what they are being asked to vote on. Otherwise it is too easy for politicians to bribe them with cheaper petrol/beer/fags/houses (insert the bribe du jour here) because they are unable to extrapolate the consequences of what they are being offered.

We expect people to demonstrate minimum levels of skill and understanding when they want to drive a car: why not when they decide on our collective future?


I didn't mean you should educate everyone equally to the same level (poor choice of word on my part). How would that even work? I was meaning you are best to educate all people properly to a decent level in the first place. At no point during school did we get taught how to run a budget or what politics even was. These things should be basic skills and not just taught in specialised classes. I picked up all these things on my own as well as having parents that took an active interest in my education and life in general. Not everyone has this.

People just have different views on politics and what matters to them due to circumstance. How can you so easily compare your intelligence
to someone else's and decide how they vote is right or wrong? I make far more effort than most people I know when I vote - reading through most, but not all policies of parties that interest me (but as a serious, intelligent voter you would consider all your options right?). I also know that it is pretty much rendered irrelevant by someone voting for their mum or dad's party without even knowing who the party leader is but it doesn't matter to me, it's their vote. 

And how do you even begin to measure someone's ability to vote? Do you have to pass a test covering all the ministries in NZ? That's just absurd.

But like I already said, I feel your frustrations and feel like some people's votes are a waste. But who am I to judge what is important to them?

Edit to delete a wild copy and paste...


I'm not suggesting that your approach is wrong - the Voter Test could easily be something you take at 18 with whatever other exams they do in NZ at that age. My point is that demonstrating you understand at least to a reasonable level how governments work, how state finances, taxation and so on work should be a prerequisite for being allowed the privilege to affect their outcomes.

For example, if a politician says to you on your doorstep "I can guarantee that if you vote for me/my party your weekly beers will cost 50% less because we will cut beer tax!" you should at least have demonstrated you will be informed enough to say "And how will you replace the tax income you loose from doing that?" instead of just saying "Chur bro! Sounds pretty sweet aye!"


I think we agree on the same thing in principle just disagree that you lose your right to vote by failing a test.

Demonstrating that you understand how governments work, how state finances, taxation work etc should be part of education at a very young age. But then how do you stop the inevitable criticism of the government in power controlling young minds etc...


You don't lose your right to vote by failing the test. Like driving, you gain your right to vote by passing the test - you have no right to lose until you have done that.


possibly the silliest notion I have seen on these forums 


You think it silly that idiots ought not to have a say in what happens to you and your family? Interesting.


universal suffrage is a basic human right. 


If you say so.

I'm merely suggesting that it should be a qualified right to prevent those too stupid to exercise it properly from ruining economies with their stupidity.


continuing your silly game I would suggest  that if these people denied the basic right to vote they would not have to pay tax. No representation no taxation.


Fair enough - most of them probably earn very little and pay almost nothing anyway. 


Unbelievable. 




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


11831 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 3836

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  Reply # 880198 17-Aug-2013 17:45
Send private message

KiwiNZ:
Geektastic:
KiwiNZ:
Geektastic:
KiwiNZ:
Geektastic:
KiwiNZ:
Geektastic:
sdav:
Geektastic:
sdav:
Geektastic:
sdav:
Geektastic:

I'm not 100% convinced by democracy myself: it gives votes to idiots, which is a bad thing. The modern world is far too complex and the cost of rectifying economic mistakes far too great for people who can barely string a sentence together to be allowed an equal say in what happens. At the very least, a 'Voting Licence' should be required, for which you must sit a test to demonstrate a reasonable grasp of economics, foreign policy and so on. Passing a more stringent version of the licence test should be required before you can stand for election, too.


Hmmm I know what you mean but No! Instead of giving votes to only to the "educated" you are better educating everyone equally in the first place.

The reason I don't jump on the band wagon and criticise the government at every opportunity is I know the world is more complex than I will ever (and sometimes care to) understand. I think the current state of mis-information and half truth politics to undermine whoever is in power just for the sake of it is more damaging and gets the country nowhere. The Greens are the worst at it I think. OT again... I'll leave it there!


How can you educate everyone equally? My IQ is almost 140. How can you educate someone whose IQ is say 90 equally to me? How can you educate me equally to someone whose IQ is say 180?

Some people are just stupid. They should not be allowed to vote unless they can prove that they understand what they are being asked to vote on. Otherwise it is too easy for politicians to bribe them with cheaper petrol/beer/fags/houses (insert the bribe du jour here) because they are unable to extrapolate the consequences of what they are being offered.

We expect people to demonstrate minimum levels of skill and understanding when they want to drive a car: why not when they decide on our collective future?


I didn't mean you should educate everyone equally to the same level (poor choice of word on my part). How would that even work? I was meaning you are best to educate all people properly to a decent level in the first place. At no point during school did we get taught how to run a budget or what politics even was. These things should be basic skills and not just taught in specialised classes. I picked up all these things on my own as well as having parents that took an active interest in my education and life in general. Not everyone has this.

People just have different views on politics and what matters to them due to circumstance. How can you so easily compare your intelligence
to someone else's and decide how they vote is right or wrong? I make far more effort than most people I know when I vote - reading through most, but not all policies of parties that interest me (but as a serious, intelligent voter you would consider all your options right?). I also know that it is pretty much rendered irrelevant by someone voting for their mum or dad's party without even knowing who the party leader is but it doesn't matter to me, it's their vote. 

And how do you even begin to measure someone's ability to vote? Do you have to pass a test covering all the ministries in NZ? That's just absurd.

But like I already said, I feel your frustrations and feel like some people's votes are a waste. But who am I to judge what is important to them?

Edit to delete a wild copy and paste...


I'm not suggesting that your approach is wrong - the Voter Test could easily be something you take at 18 with whatever other exams they do in NZ at that age. My point is that demonstrating you understand at least to a reasonable level how governments work, how state finances, taxation and so on work should be a prerequisite for being allowed the privilege to affect their outcomes.

For example, if a politician says to you on your doorstep "I can guarantee that if you vote for me/my party your weekly beers will cost 50% less because we will cut beer tax!" you should at least have demonstrated you will be informed enough to say "And how will you replace the tax income you loose from doing that?" instead of just saying "Chur bro! Sounds pretty sweet aye!"


I think we agree on the same thing in principle just disagree that you lose your right to vote by failing a test.

Demonstrating that you understand how governments work, how state finances, taxation work etc should be part of education at a very young age. But then how do you stop the inevitable criticism of the government in power controlling young minds etc...


You don't lose your right to vote by failing the test. Like driving, you gain your right to vote by passing the test - you have no right to lose until you have done that.


possibly the silliest notion I have seen on these forums 


You think it silly that idiots ought not to have a say in what happens to you and your family? Interesting.


universal suffrage is a basic human right. 


If you say so.

I'm merely suggesting that it should be a qualified right to prevent those too stupid to exercise it properly from ruining economies with their stupidity.


continuing your silly game I would suggest  that if these people denied the basic right to vote they would not have to pay tax. No representation no taxation.


Fair enough - most of them probably earn very little and pay almost nothing anyway. 


Unbelievable. 


No, almost certainly true I would say.

You can't defend your belief that idiots are entitled to an equal say by simply relying on an outdated concept such as a fictional right to vote. The modern world is too complex and the world economy to complex for anyone and everyone to have the same ability to influence it. When things have risk, we control access to them. For example no idiot is going to become an airline pilot because who would want their plane being flown by an idiot?

So who wants their economy being flown by idiots? Surely at least equally important?





810 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 880212 17-Aug-2013 17:58
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This quoting is getting out of hand, could we try and keep it pruned to the relevent points? Surely anyone can scroll back through the thread to see what's going on, especially when there are only 2-3 people replying?

119 posts

Master Geek
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  Reply # 880235 17-Aug-2013 18:46
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"I know no safe depositary of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves;

and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion,

the remedy is not to take it from them, but to inform their discretion by education.

This is the true corrective of abuses of constitutional power." --Thomas Jefferson to W. Jarvis, 1820.


The letters between Jefferson and Madison about the role of goverment ~200 years ago are worth researching. This forum topic flows along the same lines.


Geektastic your satire reminds me of an experiment in 1967, Called the "The Third Wave"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Third_Wave


The underwear and shoe bomber and now:
Breast implants suicide bomb threat: Heathrow on high alert over “credible” intelligence
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/breast-implants-suicide-bomb-threat-2172911

It gets better:
"It is also feared they may have ­developed an undetectable liquid explosive that could be soaked into clothing."

Just imagine the next plane you board, you have to fly naked. Any woman with large breasts has to take the bus.

I heard it was going to get crazy, now I believe them.

12899 posts

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  Reply # 880253 17-Aug-2013 19:16
Send private message

Geektastic:
KiwiNZ:
Geektastic:
KiwiNZ:
Geektastic:
KiwiNZ:
Geektastic:
KiwiNZ:
Geektastic:
sdav:
Geektastic:
sdav:
Geektastic:
sdav:
Geektastic:

I'm not 100% convinced by democracy myself: it gives votes to idiots, which is a bad thing. The modern world is far too complex and the cost of rectifying economic mistakes far too great for people who can barely string a sentence together to be allowed an equal say in what happens. At the very least, a 'Voting Licence' should be required, for which you must sit a test to demonstrate a reasonable grasp of economics, foreign policy and so on. Passing a more stringent version of the licence test should be required before you can stand for election, too.


Hmmm I know what you mean but No! Instead of giving votes to only to the "educated" you are better educating everyone equally in the first place.

The reason I don't jump on the band wagon and criticise the government at every opportunity is I know the world is more complex than I will ever (and sometimes care to) understand. I think the current state of mis-information and half truth politics to undermine whoever is in power just for the sake of it is more damaging and gets the country nowhere. The Greens are the worst at it I think. OT again... I'll leave it there!


How can you educate everyone equally? My IQ is almost 140. How can you educate someone whose IQ is say 90 equally to me? How can you educate me equally to someone whose IQ is say 180?

Some people are just stupid. They should not be allowed to vote unless they can prove that they understand what they are being asked to vote on. Otherwise it is too easy for politicians to bribe them with cheaper petrol/beer/fags/houses (insert the bribe du jour here) because they are unable to extrapolate the consequences of what they are being offered.

We expect people to demonstrate minimum levels of skill and understanding when they want to drive a car: why not when they decide on our collective future?


I didn't mean you should educate everyone equally to the same level (poor choice of word on my part). How would that even work? I was meaning you are best to educate all people properly to a decent level in the first place. At no point during school did we get taught how to run a budget or what politics even was. These things should be basic skills and not just taught in specialised classes. I picked up all these things on my own as well as having parents that took an active interest in my education and life in general. Not everyone has this.

People just have different views on politics and what matters to them due to circumstance. How can you so easily compare your intelligence
to someone else's and decide how they vote is right or wrong? I make far more effort than most people I know when I vote - reading through most, but not all policies of parties that interest me (but as a serious, intelligent voter you would consider all your options right?). I also know that it is pretty much rendered irrelevant by someone voting for their mum or dad's party without even knowing who the party leader is but it doesn't matter to me, it's their vote. 

And how do you even begin to measure someone's ability to vote? Do you have to pass a test covering all the ministries in NZ? That's just absurd.

But like I already said, I feel your frustrations and feel like some people's votes are a waste. But who am I to judge what is important to them?

Edit to delete a wild copy and paste...


I'm not suggesting that your approach is wrong - the Voter Test could easily be something you take at 18 with whatever other exams they do in NZ at that age. My point is that demonstrating you understand at least to a reasonable level how governments work, how state finances, taxation and so on work should be a prerequisite for being allowed the privilege to affect their outcomes.

For example, if a politician says to you on your doorstep "I can guarantee that if you vote for me/my party your weekly beers will cost 50% less because we will cut beer tax!" you should at least have demonstrated you will be informed enough to say "And how will you replace the tax income you loose from doing that?" instead of just saying "Chur bro! Sounds pretty sweet aye!"


I think we agree on the same thing in principle just disagree that you lose your right to vote by failing a test.

Demonstrating that you understand how governments work, how state finances, taxation work etc should be part of education at a very young age. But then how do you stop the inevitable criticism of the government in power controlling young minds etc...


You don't lose your right to vote by failing the test. Like driving, you gain your right to vote by passing the test - you have no right to lose until you have done that.


possibly the silliest notion I have seen on these forums 


You think it silly that idiots ought not to have a say in what happens to you and your family? Interesting.


universal suffrage is a basic human right. 


If you say so.

I'm merely suggesting that it should be a qualified right to prevent those too stupid to exercise it properly from ruining economies with their stupidity.


continuing your silly game I would suggest  that if these people denied the basic right to vote they would not have to pay tax. No representation no taxation.


Fair enough - most of them probably earn very little and pay almost nothing anyway. 


Unbelievable. 


No, almost certainly true I would say.

You can't defend your belief that idiots are entitled to an equal say by simply relying on an outdated concept such as a fictional right to vote. The modern world is too complex and the world economy to complex for anyone and everyone to have the same ability to influence it. When things have risk, we control access to them. For example no idiot is going to become an airline pilot because who would want their plane being flown by an idiot?

So who wants their economy being flown by idiots? Surely at least equally important?


Your bigotry is incredible.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


810 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 191
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  Reply # 880301 17-Aug-2013 20:42
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 KiwiNZ:
Geektastic:
KiwiNZ:
Geektastic:
KiwiNZ:
Geektastic:
KiwiNZ:
Geektastic:
KiwiNZ:
Geektastic:
sdav:
Geektastic:
sdav:
Geektastic:
sdav:
Geektastic:

I'm not 100% convinced by democracy myself: it gives votes to idiots, which is a bad thing. The modern world is far too complex and the cost of rectifying economic mistakes far too great for people who can barely string a sentence together to be allowed an equal say in what happens. At the very least, a 'Voting Licence' should be required, for which you must sit a test to demonstrate a reasonable grasp of economics, foreign policy and so on. Passing a more stringent version of the licence test should be required before you can stand for election, too.


Hmmm I know what you mean but No! Instead of giving votes to only to the "educated" you are better educating everyone equally in the first place.

The reason I don't jump on the band wagon and criticise the government at every opportunity is I know the world is more complex than I will ever (and sometimes care to) understand. I think the current state of mis-information and half truth politics to undermine whoever is in power just for the sake of it is more damaging and gets the country nowhere. The Greens are the worst at it I think. OT again... I'll leave it there!


How can you educate everyone equally? My IQ is almost 140. How can you educate someone whose IQ is say 90 equally to me? How can you educate me equally to someone whose IQ is say 180?

Some people are just stupid. They should not be allowed to vote unless they can prove that they understand what they are being asked to vote on. Otherwise it is too easy for politicians to bribe them with cheaper petrol/beer/fags/houses (insert the bribe du jour here) because they are unable to extrapolate the consequences of what they are being offered.

We expect people to demonstrate minimum levels of skill and understanding when they want to drive a car: why not when they decide on our collective future?


I didn't mean you should educate everyone equally to the same level (poor choice of word on my part). How would that even work? I was meaning you are best to educate all people properly to a decent level in the first place. At no point during school did we get taught how to run a budget or what politics even was. These things should be basic skills and not just taught in specialised classes. I picked up all these things on my own as well as having parents that took an active interest in my education and life in general. Not everyone has this.

People just have different views on politics and what matters to them due to circumstance. How can you so easily compare your intelligence
to someone else's and decide how they vote is right or wrong? I make far more effort than most people I know when I vote - reading through most, but not all policies of parties that interest me (but as a serious, intelligent voter you would consider all your options right?). I also know that it is pretty much rendered irrelevant by someone voting for their mum or dad's party without even knowing who the party leader is but it doesn't matter to me, it's their vote. 

And how do you even begin to measure someone's ability to vote? Do you have to pass a test covering all the ministries in NZ? That's just absurd.

But like I already said, I feel your frustrations and feel like some people's votes are a waste. But who am I to judge what is important to them?

Edit to delete a wild copy and paste...


I'm not suggesting that your approach is wrong - the Voter Test could easily be something you take at 18 with whatever other exams they do in NZ at that age. My point is that demonstrating you understand at least to a reasonable level how governments work, how state finances, taxation and so on work should be a prerequisite for being allowed the privilege to affect their outcomes.

For example, if a politician says to you on your doorstep "I can guarantee that if you vote for me/my party your weekly beers will cost 50% less because we will cut beer tax!" you should at least have demonstrated you will be informed enough to say "And how will you replace the tax income you loose from doing that?" instead of just saying "Chur bro! Sounds pretty sweet aye!"


I think we agree on the same thing in principle just disagree that you lose your right to vote by failing a test.

Demonstrating that you understand how governments work, how state finances, taxation work etc should be part of education at a very young age. But then how do you stop the inevitable criticism of the government in power controlling young minds etc...


You don't lose your right to vote by failing the test. Like driving, you gain your right to vote by passing the test - you have no right to lose until you have done that.


possibly the silliest notion I have seen on these forums 


You think it silly that idiots ought not to have a say in what happens to you and your family? Interesting.


universal suffrage is a basic human right. 


If you say so.

I'm merely suggesting that it should be a qualified right to prevent those too stupid to exercise it properly from ruining economies with their stupidity.


continuing your silly game I would suggest  that if these people denied the basic right to vote they would not have to pay tax. No representation no taxation.


Fair enough - most of them probably earn very little and pay almost nothing anyway. 


Unbelievable. 


No, almost certainly true I would say.

You can't defend your belief that idiots are entitled to an equal say by simply relying on an outdated concept such as a fictional right to vote. The modern world is too complex and the world economy to complex for anyone and everyone to have the same ability to influence it. When things have risk, we control access to them. For example no idiot is going to become an airline pilot because who would want their plane being flown by an idiot?

So who wants their economy being flown by idiots? Surely at least equally important?


Your bigotry is incredible.

119 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 22
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  Reply # 880331 17-Aug-2013 21:58
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For those who think the collective knows best. (Borg from StarTrek)

This ~45min movie may help. This is the "Third Wave" in movie form.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICng-KRxXJ8


For others this movie Freedom to Fascism may open your eyes, by producer Aaron Russo (Bette Midler'sThe Rose, Trading Places)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNNeVu8wUak


The US is one of the most medicated nations in the world. With the UK its more exotic medication + the prescriptions.


For those worried about Climate change and Terrorism check out "The Survivaball"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3a3XBnMe5Q

http://www.survivaball.com/index.php




Yes Minister - Describes why we need more surveillance from a ministers perspective. 30min.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIyFColD18c



11831 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 3836

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Lifetime subscriber

  Reply # 880343 17-Aug-2013 22:34
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Your bigotry is incredible.


Well, if ad hominem name calling is the best defence of your position that you can muster....





2385 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 286
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  Reply # 880401 18-Aug-2013 08:21
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Geektastic:
 

Your bigotry is incredible.


Well, if ad hominem name calling is the best defence of your position that you can muster....


Name calling doesn't inspire serious debate.
KiwiNZ/PaulBags: how about coming up with counter arguments? 

As soon as somebody starts with the name calling its a sign that that person has lost he debate....

Reminds me of Piers Morgan


4530 posts

Uber Geek
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  Reply # 880424 18-Aug-2013 09:25
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PaulBags:
Geektastic: I'm not suggesting that your approach is wrong - the Voter Test could easily be something you take at 18 with whatever other exams they do in NZ at that age.


I remember me at 18, and I'd severely hope there would be a chance to retake the test later in life when your not so much of an idiot.


Also as a non-citizen (non-voter) can I pay less tax? After all if I don't have the same rights, why should I have the same responsibilities?


You can vote here as a non-citizen. You just need to be a resident. I was surprised; it's citizens only in Australia. But 2 days after I registered my first car in NZ there was a letter from the Electoral Commission, congratulations, you're on the electoral roll!




iPad Air + iPhone SE + 2degrees 4tw!

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.


2536 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1198


  Reply # 880500 18-Aug-2013 12:09
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KiwiNZ:

universal suffrage is a basic human right. 


Cobblers. No country has universal suffrage, including ours. In NZ there is an age test, a prison test (most incarcerated prisoners can't vote) and a citizenship/residency test. Only if you meet all of these can you vote.

Maybe we should turn the American maxim of "no taxation without representation" on it's head. Define the level of tax that (say) someone on the minimum wage working 25 hours per week would be paying. Then, on the basis that if you arne't paying your "fair share" of tax you don't have a legitimate right to decide how those taxes are spent, only count the votes of people paying at least that much tax in the previous year?

Not too dissimilar to how local body voting used to work - you have to own property (=pay rates) in a locality to get to vote for council.

Slightly off-topic - can we please dial back on the amount of nested quoting in this thread n- it's getting ridiculous.

119 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 22
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  Reply # 880556 18-Aug-2013 14:06
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Thanks for the link Klipspringer.

To whoever said it was ok for some to be above the Law, corruption springs to mind.

In the UK at one time only the landed gentry were allowed to vote.

Most people have a good sense of right and wrong. If you've lost faith in people, it maybe time to start looking at yourself.

I asked one lady about her thoughts on the GCSB bill. She said "Whats that?". I said "The spying bill". She came right back with "They shouldn't be doing that!"

2011 Elections
Total Votes Cast for National Party (f)    
1,058,636
Electors on Master Roll (g)
3,070,847    
Total Votes Cast for National Party / Electors on Master Roll (k) = (f / g)
34.5%

http://www.electionresults.govt.nz/electionresults_2011/e9/html/statistics.html

If you received 34.5% on an exam and passed I would hope you would start looking at the system. It's not just a National Party issue, the others are in the same boat.

Here's a few ideas
Direct Democracy
Switzerland
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1435383/How-direct-democracy-makes-Switzerland-a-better-place.html
E-Democracy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-democracy
Irish Perspective
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZBnpRAx9ug

To brighten up your day Peter Kay - Misheard Lyrics
http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=Uv2fVaHSISw

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