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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 864516 23-Jul-2013 17:58
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These people moaning about lack of over sight etc. Can you point out the sections and phrases of the bill you are worried about?
In fact that goes for anyone against it. Please post up the words that have you upset

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  Reply # 864524 23-Jul-2013 18:14
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Have you read the whole thread I've not used a specific part of the bill but a very viable example about how someone can if they so desired use the powers granted within this bill to cause problems for anyone if they so desired.  (edited for typo).

We're not saying there is not a need for a bill that grants greater powers for them to catch the criminals they say the bill is aimed at but the bill does not need to impeach on our rights to privacy.

What is interesting is that the person who asked for an example of how this bill in it's current form could effect them has suddenly gone silent (now we have you taking it up for him). Please note this is not a dig at either of you but your asking for examples and have been given them but simply choose to ignore that as unlikely as the scenario I've used is to happen the fact is that it could.

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  Reply # 864529 23-Jul-2013 18:19
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I'm just interested to know the specific thing you are upset at. Have you actually read and understood it?
I'm just trying to work out who has a valid argument and who's a bandwagon jumper ;)

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  Reply # 864539 23-Jul-2013 18:37
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Well wouldn't say I'm jumping on any bandwagon but the opening words of this thread are "For all those opposed to or worried about the passing of this Bill in its current form"

"In it's current form" this bill is flawed sure there has been a posts on here that are obviously outright against the bill in any form but this is not the point of this thread nor is it what I've been saying all along. This Bill in its current form is wrong it needs to be changed before it is implemented I can't see why anyone could or would be happy with how it is at the moment.

Most posters are agreeing that it needs to be reviewed and that's what the OP has said from the start I myself have said many times the intent of the bill is right, the wording and how they want to do it so far is way off and it is simply not a case of you, me or any law abiding citizen has anything to hide as we do not know how and what the make up of future governments will be and this is more of the problem. If you give them ultimate power when or if the unthinkable happens and we get a government that wants to use this info to subdue any opponents or anyone who has been outspoken against them they can and possibly will.
 
Obviously some here are missing that point. We are all entiitled to an opinion and have a right to speak it. Just as we have a right to disagree. I for one also believe in my right to privacy.  Anyway I'm off for dinner goodnight. (edited to rearrange the paragraph)

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  Reply # 864540 23-Jul-2013 18:38
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Personally, I believe John Key is the most corrupt PM we have probably ever had. I do not trust him, especially with more powers to spy on citizens. Can we trust him not to pass on all the info to the USA?




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  Reply # 864541 23-Jul-2013 18:41
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ajobbins: Personally, I believe John Key is the most corrupt PM we have probably ever had. I do not trust him, especially with more powers to spy on citizens. Can we trust him not to pass on all the info to the USA?


"the most corrupt" thats subjective and really has nothing to do with the topic. (IMHO)




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  Reply # 864545 23-Jul-2013 18:45
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TheUngeek: And there goes the incorrect common argument from the opposed.
Government law enforcement agencies are all that see the info. Not the public not ministers etc



I'm sorry, what were you saying?

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  Reply # 864548 23-Jul-2013 18:51
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PaulBags:
TheUngeek: And there goes the incorrect common argument from the opposed.
Government law enforcement agencies are all that see the info. Not the public not ministers etc



I'm sorry, what were you saying?


That has zero to do with this bill, the sis, police, gcsb etc.

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  Reply # 864549 23-Jul-2013 18:52
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jeffnz:
ajobbins: Personally, I believe John Key is the most corrupt PM we have probably ever had. I do not trust him, especially with more powers to spy on citizens. Can we trust him not to pass on all the info to the USA?


"the most corrupt" that's subjective and really has nothing to do with the topic. (IMHO)


It's relevant to the topic in that we have this one guy (JK) trying very hard to push this bill through, and I don't think he can be trusted with it. You have to ask what his motives really are. He recent 'relationship' with the US and all that has come with it should be a red flag.

When the [explicit deleted] Human Rights Commission comes out with major concerns about this bill, and the PM then THREATENS them.....that should be very worrying.

I have no doubt John Key will do whatever it takes to enact this law, including using (abusing) urgency if he sees fit.




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  Reply # 864551 23-Jul-2013 18:53
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jtbthatsme: Well wouldn't say I'm jumping on any bandwagon but the opening words of this thread are "For all those opposed to or worried about the passing of this Bill in its current form"

"In it's current form" this bill is flawed sure there has been a posts on here that are obviously outright against the bill in any form but this is not the point of this thread nor is it what I've been saying all along. This Bill in its current form is wrong it needs to be changed before it is implemented I can't see why anyone could or would be happy with how it is at the moment.

Most posters are agreeing that it needs to be reviewed and that's what the OP has said from the start I myself have said many times the intent of the bill is right, the wording and how they want to do it so far is way off and it is simply not a case of you, me or any law abiding citizen has anything to hide as we do not know how and what the make up of future governments will be and this is more of the problem. If you give them ultimate power when or if the unthinkable happens and we get a government that wants to use this info to subdue any opponents or anyone who has been outspoken against them they can and possibly will.
 
Obviously some here are missing that point. We are all entiitled to an opinion and have a right to speak it. Just as we have a right to disagree. I for one also believe in my right to privacy.  Anyway I'm off for dinner goodnight. (edited to rearrange the paragraph)


My point is those objectors are reacting to media reporting and green party sound bites.
Again, what wording of the bill are people concerned about.


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  Reply # 864554 23-Jul-2013 18:56
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ajobbins:
jeffnz:
ajobbins: Personally, I believe John Key is the most corrupt PM we have probably ever had. I do not trust him, especially with more powers to spy on citizens. Can we trust him not to pass on all the info to the USA?


"the most corrupt" that's subjective and really has nothing to do with the topic. (IMHO)


It's relevant to the topic in that we have this one guy (JK) trying very hard to push this bill through, and I don't think he can be trusted with it. You have to ask what his motives really are. He recent 'relationship' with the US and all that has come with it should be a red flag.

When the [explicit deleted] Human Rights Commission comes out with major concerns about this bill, and the PM then THREATENS them.....that should be very worrying.

I have no doubt John Key will do whatever it takes to enact this law, including using (abusing) urgency if he sees fit.


When the human rights time wasters come out with a load of crap they get what they deserve. Thats one place we should save costs.

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  Reply # 864557 23-Jul-2013 19:02
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ajobbins:
jeffnz:
ajobbins: Personally, I believe John Key is the most corrupt PM we have probably ever had. I do not trust him, especially with more powers to spy on citizens. Can we trust him not to pass on all the info to the USA?


"the most corrupt" that's subjective and really has nothing to do with the topic. (IMHO)


It's relevant to the topic in that we have this one guy (JK) trying very hard to push this bill through, and I don't think he can be trusted with it. You have to ask what his motives really are. He recent 'relationship' with the US and all that has come with it should be a red flag.

When the [explicit deleted] Human Rights Commission comes out with major concerns about this bill, and the PM then THREATENS them.....that should be very worrying.

I have no doubt John Key will do whatever it takes to enact this law, including using (abusing) urgency if he sees fit.


I must admit I had a wry grin when I saw "I do not trust him" and remember back to the labour campaign with the trust  sound byte, good to see its still ingrained in some. Sorry still don't see the relevance just a political snipe which I see as unnecessary and clouds the issue.  






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  Reply # 864561 23-Jul-2013 19:18
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TheUngeek:
ajobbins:
jeffnz:
ajobbins: Personally, I believe John Key is the most corrupt PM we have probably ever had. I do not trust him, especially with more powers to spy on citizens. Can we trust him not to pass on all the info to the USA?


"the most corrupt" that's subjective and really has nothing to do with the topic. (IMHO)


It's relevant to the topic in that we have this one guy (JK) trying very hard to push this bill through, and I don't think he can be trusted with it. You have to ask what his motives really are. He recent 'relationship' with the US and all that has come with it should be a red flag.

When the [explicit deleted] Human Rights Commission comes out with major concerns about this bill, and the PM then THREATENS them.....that should be very worrying.

I have no doubt John Key will do whatever it takes to enact this law, including using (abusing) urgency if he sees fit.


When the human rights time wasters come out with a load of crap they get what they deserve. Thats one place we should save costs.

This post makes me sad.


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  Reply # 864564 23-Jul-2013 19:21
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TheUngeek:
PaulBags:
TheUngeek: And there goes the incorrect common argument from the opposed.
Government law enforcement agencies are all that see the info. Not the public not ministers etc



I'm sorry, what were you saying?


That has zero to do with this bill, the sis, police, gcsb etc.


It has to do because according to the Bill:

"to report to the following on anything done under paragraphs (a) and (b) and any intelligence gathered as a result:
“(i)the Minister; and
“(ii)any person or office holder (whether in New Zealand or overseas) authorised by the Minister to receive the report."

If she gets any information I don't feel safe enough there won't be a disclosure to other parties.







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  Reply # 864565 23-Jul-2013 19:24
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TheUngeek: When the human rights time wasters come out with a load of crap they get what they deserve. Thats one place we should save costs.


Holy shit. This is the saddest comment I have ever read around here.

People died for us to have these Human Rights. This comment alone makes me sad. Our Defence Forces soldiers died to preserve our rights against tyrants. People were persecuted, humilated, exiled so that YOU could have the rights you have.

And you want to deny those rights to others?








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