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  Reply # 865760 25-Jul-2013 11:55
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insane:
Talkiet:
insane: [snip]
Of course ISPs should not be expected to provide a blanket service to all users, that's like the transport agencies being responsible for stopping drivers driving to brothels.



This is market forces at work. It's great consumers have a choice to use an ISP (there's more than one in NZ) that have the capability to offer opt-in content filtering. That's GREAT. I LOVE that.

Making every ISP offer it, and making it opt-in by defaul? That's where I have a huge problem.

CHeers - N



I guess the only problem I can see with opt-in by default is having a few CSRs blush when people call up the ISP and ask 'Can you please enable porn access on my account' ;)


But, why does it need to go through CSR's?   When I set the parental settings on my skybox, i do not need to call the Sky CSR. 

This can easily be done through account web management so nobody will need to call their isp. In fact the ISP's will not want people calling them. 


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  Reply # 865761 25-Jul-2013 11:58
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insane:
Talkiet:
insane: [snip]
Of course ISPs should not be expected to provide a blanket service to all users, that's like the transport agencies being responsible for stopping drivers driving to brothels.



This is market forces at work. It's great consumers have a choice to use an ISP (there's more than one in NZ) that have the capability to offer opt-in content filtering. That's GREAT. I LOVE that.

Making every ISP offer it, and making it opt-in by defaul? That's where I have a huge problem.

CHeers - N



I guess the only problem I can see with opt-in by default is having a few CSRs blush when people call up the ISP and ask 'Can you please enable porn access on my account' ;)


I accept you have a system in your network, however you probably don't have much idea how much time, design, testing and $$$$$$ it would take to roll this capability out to cover half a million users, in a network where there is no single common transit point for all traffic.

Cheers - N


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  Reply # 865767 25-Jul-2013 12:04
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surfisup1000:

Expensive?  Really? So tell me how much this would cost?  You have no idea do you?



Alright, maybe he doesn't (I don't know him) - but I do, since we've had quotes for generic DPI, and that's before we think about adding filtering. Just doing DPI for the purposes of enabling charging (for example, to allow Facebook Zero for free) costs in the millions for capacity up to hundreds of megabits. Adding filtering is about the same again.

Then on top of that you have to at least double the hardware capacity because DPI adds such a huge hit to performance, so depending on what gear you run, there's another half a million easily.

So even a relatively small ISP can expect to be spending the best part of $3-4M on a feature that gains them nothing other than increased operating overhead and more places for things to break.

Edit -- and before anybody disagrees with me, yes, I know it depends on your starting point. If you have some of the right gear already or a big capacity margin on the 'wrong' gear, maybe it's less, although really it's still not because it just means you bring forward your next upgrade. If you don't, it might be more. Either way, it's a lot of money.




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These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.


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  Reply # 865769 25-Jul-2013 12:06
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sen8or: 
Anything to do with the damned Royal Baby
Justin Bieber


I'd vote for that!

//You don't vote for kings.




iPad Air + iPhone SE + 2degrees 4tw!

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.


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  Reply # 865777 25-Jul-2013 12:14
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Porn isn't illegal in this country so why ban access to it?




Whatifthespacekeyhadneverbeeninvented?


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  Reply # 865794 25-Jul-2013 12:20
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Klipspringer:
ubergeeknz: I don't think there's any argument against child porn being illegal.  I think it's fair to say that it's pretty easy to define what is, and what isn't, child pornography.

The proposal in the UK is to restrict everyone's internet access to all kinds of pornography, illegal or not.  To access any kind of pornography (or whatever the state deems to be pornography), people would have to "opt in".  That's what we're talking about here.


Agreed. And I dont want any of it.

And I should not have to "opt out" from receiving it either.

If people want porn then they can have it, all they need to do is "opt in"




Don't type in www.internetporn.com then you have not opted in.

Maybe take personal responsibility for what you choose to look at on the internet.

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  Reply # 865796 25-Jul-2013 12:23
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DarthKermit: Porn isn't illegal in this country so why ban access to it?


Not correct. Some porn is illegal




Mike
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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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  Reply # 865805 25-Jul-2013 12:33
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KiwiNZ:
DarthKermit: Porn isn't illegal in this country so why ban access to it?


Not correct. Some porn is illegal


Some driving is illegal, we don't ban all driving. Some drugs are illegal, but we don't ban all drugs.




Windows 7 x64 // i5-3570K // 16GB DDR3-1600 // GTX660Ti 2GB // Samsung 830 120GB SSD // OCZ Agility4 120GB SSD // Samsung U28D590D @ 3840x2160 & Asus PB278Q @ 2560x1440
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  Reply # 865810 25-Jul-2013 12:38
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surfisup1000:
AppleJackXD:
How do you accidentally stumble upon porn ? I have never had porn acidently end up on my screen for the almost 20 years i have been using internet.


Well, a 7 year old daughter of a friend was looking for pussycats on the internet.

How on earth would she have known? 


Google with safe search on (default setting) returns nothing but cats for the term 'pussy cats'. Bing with moderate safe search on (default) specifically blocks the searching of images with that term because "The search pussy cats may return explicit adult content and has been filtered by your Bing SafeSearch settings.". Yahoo shows no porn for 'pussy cats', and blocks image results.
Bing does however return pornography sites for the term 'pussy', but refuses to display images (???). Yahoo does just as poorly as bing for the term pussy. Google specifically returns no results at all for 'pussy', and only mentions the filter, not sex at all, in it's explanation.

Even if there was an internet filter it would still allow search engines to be used, even if the resulting page links were blocked. Therefore children could still read the website descriptions, and you'd still have children asking parents what any part of: "FREE photos of pussy, pornstars, cougars, asian girls, amateur teens and more!" meant.

I think that if you purchase a computer that your child will be using you should complain to the store you bought the computer from and/or microsoft when their default search engine on their default browser doesn't filter inadvertent pornography properly. So long as you mention that you plan on letting your child use the computer when you buy it, and ask if it's suitable for that. If they say 'yes' and then the default browser pops up with porn, then it's not fit for purpose as they claimed and you have recourse available to you under the consumer guarantees act. If you order an internet service and specify that you wish your child to be able to use it without running into anything inappropriate, and they say that yes their service provides that and then it doesn't, bam, same thing. So, if the laws we currently have were used properly by consumers this wouldn't even be a discussion. The current laws preserve the rights and freedoms of everyone, and with rights come responsibilities. Personally I think that anyone who would petition the government to remove MY rights because they don't want to execute THEIR responsibilities is far too naive and childish to actually have children.

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  Reply # 865822 25-Jul-2013 12:59
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If this goes ahead can they also block all rap music, it tends to be violent and I generally hate it, sure users can opt out, but I'd like to impose my views on the whole country.

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  Reply # 865832 25-Jul-2013 13:06
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KiwiNZ:
DarthKermit: Porn isn't illegal in this country so why ban access to it?


Not correct. Some porn is illegal


You already made this point in response to my post back on page 7.
Illegal porn is already illegal, and should remain so.
The vast majority of porn is legal in New Zealand.

Also, is this porn? (it's just a photo of the sculpture of Venus de Milo).
Should this be blocked? Who gets to decide?

Cheers,
Joseph

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  Reply # 865837 25-Jul-2013 13:12
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sen8or: Found this out the hard way one day, was searching for "cream pie" on google images, definitely got the wrong sort come up!




People who don't use the technology at hand (no pun intended) may unintentionally stumble upon pornography.








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  Reply # 865838 25-Jul-2013 13:13
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josephhinvest:
KiwiNZ:
DarthKermit: Porn isn't illegal in this country so why ban access to it?


Not correct. Some porn is illegal


You already made this point in response to my post back on page 7.
Illegal porn is already illegal, and should remain so.
The vast majority of porn is legal in New Zealand.

Also, is this porn? (it's just a photo of the sculpture of Venus de Milo).
Should this be blocked? Who gets to decide?

Cheers,
Joseph


I know I was responding to a subsequent post stating that porn is not illegal 

I was was not stating that i support an ISP ban in fact as I have stated earlier I am not in support of it chiefly because there will be a cost  that will be passed onto consumers




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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  Reply # 865849 25-Jul-2013 13:21
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freitasm:

People who don't use the technology at hand (no pun intended) may unintentionally stumble upon pornography.




Ummmm, who recently said this...

" Basically we shouldn' rely on technology to block things. We should be better parents and educate kids instead of trying to hide things from them"


It is ridiculously easy for a kid to disable the filter settings, especially on tablets/smartphones. 

And, I tried your search on bing with moderate settings....How'd you like your 5 year old exposed to this? 









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  Reply # 865859 25-Jul-2013 13:31
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PaulBags:
Google with safe search on (default setting) returns nothing but cats for the term 'pussy cats'. Bing with moderate safe search on (default) specifically blocks the searching of images with that term because "The search pussy cats may return explicit adult content and has been filtered by your Bing SafeSearch settings.". Yahoo shows no porn for 'pussy cats', and blocks image results.
Bing does however return pornography sites for the term 'pussy', but refuses to display images (???). Yahoo does just as poorly as bing for the term pussy. Google specifically returns no results at all for 'pussy', and only mentions the filter, not sex at all, in it's explanation.

Even if there was an internet filter it would still allow search engines to be used, even if the resulting page links were blocked. Therefore children could still read the website descriptions, and you'd still have children asking parents what any part of: "FREE photos of pussy, pornstars, cougars, asian girls, amateur teens and more!" meant.

I think that if you purchase a computer that your child will be using you should complain to the store you bought the computer from and/or microsoft when their default search engine on their default browser doesn't filter inadvertent pornography properly. So long as you mention that you plan on letting your child use the computer when you buy it, and ask if it's suitable for that. If they say 'yes' and then the default browser pops up with porn, then it's not fit for purpose as they claimed and you have recourse available to you under the consumer guarantees act. If you order an internet service and specify that you wish your child to be able to use it without running into anything inappropriate, and they say that yes their service provides that and then it doesn't, bam, same thing. So, if the laws we currently have were used properly by consumers this wouldn't even be a discussion. The current laws preserve the rights and freedoms of everyone, and with rights come responsibilities. Personally I think that anyone who would petition the government to remove MY rights because they don't want to execute THEIR responsibilities is far too naive and childish to actually have children.


This was several years ago, pre-blocking. 

You guys continue to argue your rights being removed when you have the abilility to simply disable the block.  Can you explain how your rights are removed as I don't get that line of argument? 

As far as I can tell, if this is properly implemented in a secure and well designed way,  you can still use the internet as you do today and parents with young children can choose to block if they like. 

The argument to me , is whether it should be opt-in or opt-out, and whether the block setting should be encrypted against ones internet account .  My opinion is the block should be opt-in, and the block setting encrypted and maintained via an account management web interface.  That leaves little to argue other than the cost of implementation. 

The consumer guarantees act matters not if you child has viewed hardcore porn. That is ambulance at the bottom of the cliff stuff and it is not the retailers responsibility to ensure ones search settings are appropriate. 




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