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  # 866352 26-Jul-2013 09:16
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jarledb:
Klipspringer: 

This is about protecting our kids.


By that logic there should be in opt in option for alcohol information on the net too. Not to mention making it harder to get to alcohol in shops. I think we can agree that alcohol is a much bigger problem than porn.


Its pretty hard for kids here to buy alcohol in NZ. Not impossible, but its hard.

Kids are pretty well protected in just about everything, and in most places here in NZ.

This same level of protection does not exist online.

By your logic we should allow kids into shops where they sell cigaretts, remove the age limit on them. Allow them to buy alcohol, take away that age limit too. Allow them into porn shops.  After all parents should be parenting them not to go there, not to smoke underage, not to drink underage. As others have pointed out here in this thread, its the parents fault if they go there.

Why do we have these age limits? Lets take these age limits away.




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  # 866353 26-Jul-2013 09:20
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Why does everyone have to receive porn?


The chance of being accidently exposed to porn is fairly low, but if you really don't want to risk it, stay the hell off the internet.

I'll tell you what I'd much rather see banned than Porn.. Religion. Now talk about things that poison kids minds!  Make religion R18, let mature adults decide for themselves if they want to believe in make believe friends. Let's label brainwashing children with scary stories of eternal damnation as what it really is, mental and emotional abuse.






Information wants to be free. The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it.


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  # 866356 26-Jul-2013 09:24
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Klipspringer:
And that software and protection I can only put in place at home.

Why does everyone have to receive porn?



And then your whole argument comes crashing down when your kids' friends opt out of your NannyStateMode, and suddenly you're only protecting them at home again.

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  # 866357 26-Jul-2013 09:25
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Lias:
 
Why does everyone have to receive porn?


The chance of being accidently exposed to porn is fairly low, but if you really don't want to risk it, stay the hell off the internet.

I'll tell you what I'd much rather see banned than Porn.. Religion. Now talk about things that poison kids minds!  Make religion R18, let mature adults decide for themselves if they want to believe in make believe friends. Let's label brainwashing children with scary stories of eternal damnation as what it really is, mental and emotional abuse.



Who is implying we ban porn? This thread is about opting to receiving it, or opting out.

Nobody is proposing banning anything.


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  # 866358 26-Jul-2013 09:27
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Inphinity:
Klipspringer:
And that software and protection I can only put in place at home.

Why does everyone have to receive porn?



And then your whole argument comes crashing down when your kids' friends opt out of your NannyStateMode, and suddenly you're only protecting them at home again.


This is just an extra step at protecting them. Nobody said its a foolproof solution.

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  # 866359 26-Jul-2013 09:27
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Great. Let's block pornography. Let's not even worry about violence or prejudice. They're OK in NZ - particularly violence. Thin end of the wedge stuff here. Today pornography, tomorrow political opinion etc etc. Fight it tooth and nail.

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  # 866362 26-Jul-2013 09:30
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dtpnz: Great. Let's block pornography. Let's not even worry about violence or prejudice. They're OK in NZ - particularly violence. Thin end of the wedge stuff here. Today pornography, tomorrow political opinion etc etc. Fight it tooth and nail.


Again this is not about blocking porn.

Its about having an option to "opt out" of porn. Just like I can "opt out" of underage movies on Netflix for my kids.

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  # 866363 26-Jul-2013 09:31
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Klipspringer:
jarledb:
Klipspringer: 

This is about protecting our kids.


By that logic there should be in opt in option for alcohol information on the net too. Not to mention making it harder to get to alcohol in shops. I think we can agree that alcohol is a much bigger problem than porn.


Its pretty hard for kids here to buy alcohol in NZ. Not impossible, but its hard.

Kids are pretty well protected in just about everything, and in most places here in NZ.

This same level of protection does not exist online.

By your logic we should allow kids into shops where they sell cigaretts, remove the age limit on them. Allow them to buy alcohol, take away that age limit too. Allow them into porn shops.  After all parents should be parenting them not to go there, not to smoke underage, not to drink underage. As others have pointed out here in this thread, its the parents fault if they go there.

Why do we have these age limits? Lets take these age limits away.





the difference is that it is illegal for kids to buy cigarettes and booze - hence the need for enforcement.
It is not illegal for them to view porn.

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  # 866365 26-Jul-2013 09:32
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Klipspringer: 

Who is implying we ban porn? This thread is about opting to receiving it, or opting out.

Nobody is proposing banning anything.



Yes you are.. We're talking about having ISP's implement a censorship filter that effectively ban's porn unless you opt out of it. You can try and spin that however you like it but it's a ban of sorts nonetheless.. 






Information wants to be free. The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it.


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  # 866367 26-Jul-2013 09:34
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Klipspringer: 
IMO. The real issue here is that porn users will have to admit that they want to subscribe or have the ability to view porn. Maybe they feel guilty and don't want to have to take that step (there wives, girlfriends will find out LOL)
If there is guilt - WELL THEN MAYBE THATS A SIGN THAT YOU NEED TO STAY AWAY!!!!

So maybe the answer to all of this is GUILT???

How many porn users out there are comfortable with their parents, partners, family finding out that they watch porn? If you go to a hotel are you comfortable with the "porn tv" appearing on your credit card statement? Would you still watch the porn in the hotel if the name of the porn show was put onto your statement? I guess not.


How many people talk openly to their friends and parents about anything sexual? I'd wager not many. It just seems to be a semi-taboo topic to talk about. That's not specific to porn. I don't understand your guilt argument. I don't think there's any guilt involved anywhere, but to many people it could embarrassing, as it is in a way sharing details that are deemed private or intimate. Lots of people would feel equally uneasy about having "depression assistance" on a credit card statement, or "hair loss help". It's about image and how people see themselves and how confident they are discussing these sorts of personal matters with people. I'd say most people are comfortable with their partner knowing these sorts of things, but for many, that's as far as it goes.


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  # 866368 26-Jul-2013 09:35
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Lias:
Klipspringer: 

Who is implying we ban porn? This thread is about opting to receiving it, or opting out.

Nobody is proposing banning anything.



Yes you are.. We're talking about having ISP's implement a censorship filter that effectively ban's porn unless you opt out of it. You can try and spin that however you like it but it's a ban of sorts nonetheless.. 



Who says it has to work that way?
I would like the ability to "opt out" Having to "opt in" would be better. But either way I dont really care.

Thats not banning anything. Either way you still get to watch your crap

Webhead
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  # 866372 26-Jul-2013 09:37
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Klipspringer:
Its pretty hard for kids here to buy alcohol in NZ. Not impossible, but its hard.


You should come where I live. There are no selling of alcohol in the shops after 8 pm, anything over 4,5% has to be sold through the state monopoly outlets that are few and far between and only open at restricted opening hours (and not during the weekends).

We have made it pretty hard to get to alcohol here, lets make that so in NZ too - for the children.

You can use the "for the children" for a lot of arguments. Its powerful, but not necessarily warranted




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  # 866373 26-Jul-2013 09:38
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NonprayingMantis:
the difference is that it is illegal for kids to buy cigarettes and booze - hence the need for enforcement.
It is not illegal for them to view porn.


Kids can't buy porn in New Zealand, not in shops, not even on the internet unless they lie about their age.

But there are plenty of sites that offer free porn which is easily accessible to kids.

Webhead
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  # 866377 26-Jul-2013 09:40
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Klipspringer:
IMO. The real issue here is that porn users will have to admit that they want to subscribe or have the ability to view porn. Maybe they feel guilty and don't want to have to take that step (there wives, girlfriends will find out LOL)
If there is guilt - WELL THEN MAYBE THATS A SIGN THAT YOU NEED TO STAY AWAY!!!!


And THIS is a great example of why the opt in is not a good idea. 

Say the filter is filtering out information about breast cancer. Your wife is affected. Now what do you do? 

Open the filter and be labeled as a porn viewing pervert?




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  # 866378 26-Jul-2013 09:41
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Klipspringer:
jarledb:

Any teenager will know to use Tor, VPN or another service to get around the porn filter. So putting it in place will have no real effect, other than making your internet connection more expensive.



Agreed.

But it will make it harder for my 6 year old to stumble across it. And thats what this is all about


Look, if your kid is going around to places 'stumbling on' things they shouldn't, then this isn't going to stop them doing so. It won't stop them stumbling on dad's old magazines, or the pics he keeps in that folder 20 levels deep inside the Windows system folder, or the liquor in the cabinet. It won't stop your teenagers going for a joyride after they've stumbled on the liquor. It won't stop your 6 year old from walking in on your friend's parents, or you. It won't stop your kids stumbling on the unfortunately-not-locked gun cabinet. It won't stop them seeing graphic pictures of the latest reports from Syria on the 6 o'clock news. You can't stop kids from being exposed to Bad Things. The world is full of Bad Things, and you don't control any of them.

An internet filter addresses one specific Bad Thing, and it doesn't do it at all well, and it invites governments to silently decide on a whole bunch of other Bad Things they might want to add to the list at any time without telling you. I'm going to make the bold assumption that you might be South African originally. Even if you're not, bear with me -- the SA government for many years cracked down hard on anything anti-apartheid, did they not? Now we know that the majority of South Africans are not in fact racists, and instead voted for a whole new constitution that broke it down and gave back everybody their freedom, no matter what colour skin they were born with. If your hypothetical internet filter had been available then, what do you think would be the chances that you would have been able to speak your mind about racism issues on the internet in South Africa? Probably pretty close to zero. And there would be nothing you could have done about it - the first thing that would have happened after the opt-out filter went in would have been that it lost the opt-out feature.

For many more recent examples: the Arab Spring; all those governments cracked down on the Internet and used censorship and spying to stifle speech and track down the people that wanted their freedom.

This is what you demand to implement in my country. I won't have it. The only way to protect your children from Bad Things is to teach them how to identify and avoid the Bad Things until they're ready to learn more about them. My 7-year-old son has a list of web sites he is allowed to visit on his computer and any computers he uses at his friends places. I trust the parents of the kids I let him visit to be responsible too. If I was afraid they might not be, he wouldn't be going to stay there. At the same time, his computer is in the lounge room and he uses it front of us. I briefly tried some net nanny software just as an added layer of protection but it was actively useless, blocking the Wikipedia article on bacteria (which was the first thing he wanted to read) for being 'Japanese Pornography'. I took it straight off again.

After that we explained to him that the internet was wonderful and useful, but it also had a lot of things on it that would frighten or hurt him until he was older, and that was why he should only use the sites we had set up as bookmarks for him. That's working just fine. He understands, and has never been tempted to go anywhere else.

If you want your internet filtered, go ahead and filter your internet. I know that is worse than useless, but I respect your right to feel that I am wrong. If you want your children's friend's internet feeds to be filtered, then ask their parents. If they refuse, then tell them your child can't stay there and let them know why. Or perhaps you could just arrange that there is no internet time while your kids are visiting. There are a whole lot of things you can do to protect your decision that don't force a worse than useless nonsolution down the throat of the whole country whilst handing the government the ability to stop you seeing anything they don't want you to see.




iPad Pro 11" + iPhone XS + 2degrees 4tw!

 

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.


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