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  Reply # 865692 25-Jul-2013 10:52
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blakamin: I think people should just be better parents.
It's not up to ISPs, the government, teachers or anyone else but you to raise your children


(I'm 42, 2 kids)


Oh, so you monitor your children 100% of the time they are online on any device.   If they get hold of an ipad, you're hovering over their shoulders and never let them out of your sight. 

Anything else, and you are a bad parent. 

Give me a break. You are basically accusing 99% of the people out there of being bad parents. 


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  Reply # 865695 25-Jul-2013 10:54
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surfisup1000:
blakamin: I think people should just be better parents.
It's not up to ISPs, the government, teachers or anyone else but you to raise your children


(I'm 42, 2 kids)


Oh, so you monitor your children 100% of the time they are online on any device.   If they get hold of an ipad, you're hovering over their shoulders and never let them out of your sight. 

Anything else, and you are a bad parent. 

Give me a break. You are basically accusing 99% of the people out there of being bad parents. 



Being a better parent doesn't mean 100% monitoring your childrens' use. It means raising them so that they behave well.

You don't monitor your kid every day at school to ensure they aren't fighting or bullying others - but how you raise them teaches them how to act with respect to others in school or the playground.

Cheers - N


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  Reply # 865696 25-Jul-2013 10:55
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AppleJackXD:
How do you accidentally stumble upon porn ? I have never had porn acidently end up on my screen for the almost 20 years i have been using internet.


Well, a 7 year old daughter of a friend was looking for pussycats on the internet.

How on earth would she have known? 

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  Reply # 865711 25-Jul-2013 11:05
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Talkiet: 


Sorry I don't quite understand your point then or how it links into this issue. 

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  Reply # 865713 25-Jul-2013 11:06
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His point is in reference your reply. Basically we shouldn' rely on technology to block things. We should be better parents and educate kids instead of trying to hide things from them, impacting everyone else.





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  Reply # 865716 25-Jul-2013 11:10
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I feel this issue can be compared to MySky settop boxes, which allow you to set parental ratings blocks or block certain channels.

It is entirely up to the consumer as to whether they leave them on or off so why should it be an issue? Perhaps the issue might be one of privacy, where isp employees can find out names of customers who allow porn. But, the setting could be encrypted.

Or, the other problem may be in cost -- but, it should be a one off cost then relatively minuscule in the long term.

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  Reply # 865725 25-Jul-2013 11:21
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surfisup1000:
AppleJackXD:
How do you accidentally stumble upon porn ? I have never had porn acidently end up on my screen for the almost 20 years i have been using internet.


Well, a 7 year old daughter of a friend was looking for pussycats on the internet.

How on earth would she have known? 


google safe search.  (which I'm pretty sure is on 'moderate' by default)
if you search for pussy and google safe search is on you will not get rude stuff.

in other words,  if she found something rude, then somebody else has used that browser and purposely turned safe search OFF

so an ISP level filtering would not help, since the same person who turned safesearch off would just disable the ISP filter too.

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  Reply # 865728 25-Jul-2013 11:24
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surfisup1000: It is entirely up to the consumer as to whether they leave them on or off so why should it be an issue? Perhaps the issue might be one of privacy, where isp employees can find out names of customers who allow porn. But, the setting could be encrypted.

Or, the other problem may be in cost -- but, it should be a one off cost then relatively minuscule in the long term.


Most of the issues have already been brought up:

1. Slippery Slope
2. Expensive
3. Pointless

to name just a few.

With regards to privacy - you are dreaming. We currently have major issues with NZ Police inappropriately accessing information on their IT Systems. I would hate to think what your average ISP employee would do. As I mentioned before, how long before your porn filter status is used against you in court?

With regards to cost - wakey wakey. This stuff is NOT cheap, it is NOT easy. Real time web filtering of gigabits per second of traffic is not simple and easy. Plus it is something that must be constantly managed, maintained and upgraded. Badly done it will slow down your traffic, if it breaks goodbye HTTP.

Opt-In is a great idea - Watchdog is a really good example. You want filtered internet? Go Nuts. If the government wants to subsidize this fine.

With Reference to an earlier post: I would be troubled if my stepson was watching horrifically degrading nasty porn, but I have to trust that he won't based on his developing principles and morals. He will be out on his own soon enough - if you wrap them in cotton wool (and filtered internet DEFINITELY counts) you aren't preparing them.


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  Reply # 865729 25-Jul-2013 11:33
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  Reply # 865739 25-Jul-2013 11:44
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Kyanar:
insane: I love how people are saying how hard it is to do this, while having no actual experience.

The ISP I work for has been doing this for years and years as an add-on service whereby various levels of protection can be configured per user, with an override feature in case of false positives, or for those who need to stroke one out...

Sure its not 100% bullet proof, and doesn't stop internet usage via a mobile phone etc, however it stops accidental to moderate attempts to view whats being restricted.

And yes, its easy to implement for any skilled IP engineer with the right tools. Can't go into more detail without disclosing what product/appliances are being used to deliver said service.


Aaand you just admitted that said service requires additional product/appliance purchases on the ISP side.  Who's paying for this... why should I as a customer who does not want to be filtered be expected to pay for this?  In fact if my ISP were to implement an opt-in filter I'd drop them faster than a hot potato.

To those saying that this should be implemented:

I personally cannot fathom the thought processes of anyone who honestly believes it's acceptable for ISPs to act as moral arbiters of "wholesome, harmonious" content (there, I used the Chinese Government term for it just to rub it in a little) and require people to have to register to receive an unfiltered feed.  I'm sure that system isn't open to any abuse at all!  Why, the government would never request a copy of the opt-in list to find people they should be looking at in more detail.

I'm sure the GCSB will love you for it!  Actually, maybe you already work for the GCSB and this is all a giant conspiracy?  Hmmm...


I'm not sure why you're getting all bent out of shape, I never said non subscribers subsidise subscribers. The fees charged for it cover the costs to provide the service... I would have thought that would be fairly obvious.

Of course ISPs should not be expected to provide a blanket service to all users, that's like the transport agencies being responsible for stopping drivers driving to brothels.


freitasm: The issue is that the UK government is proposing an blanket opt-in by default - you must opt-out.



Isn't that a bit like how you opt-out from sending tracking stats to Google or MS when you install one of their apps, or choosing not to install some toolbar for your browser while installing freeware.

Who cares what the default setting is if it can be changed with a tickbox

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  Reply # 865741 25-Jul-2013 11:44
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wasabi2k:
surfisup1000: It is entirely up to the consumer as to whether they leave them on or off so why should it be an issue? Perhaps the issue might be one of privacy, where isp employees can find out names of customers who allow porn. But, the setting could be encrypted.

Or, the other problem may be in cost -- but, it should be a one off cost then relatively minuscule in the long term.


Most of the issues have already been brought up:

1. Slippery Slope
2. Expensive
3. Pointless

to name just a few.

With regards to privacy - you are dreaming. We currently have major issues with NZ Police inappropriately accessing information on their IT Systems. I would hate to think what your average ISP employee would do. As I mentioned before, how long before your porn filter status is used against you in court?

With regards to cost - wakey wakey. This stuff is NOT cheap, it is NOT easy. Real time web filtering of gigabits per second of traffic is not simple and easy. Plus it is something that must be constantly managed, maintained and upgraded. Badly done it will slow down your traffic, if it breaks goodbye HTTP.

Opt-In is a great idea - Watchdog is a really good example. You want filtered internet? Go Nuts. If the government wants to subsidize this fine.

With Reference to an earlier post: I would be troubled if my stepson was watching horrifically degrading nasty porn, but I have to trust that he won't based on his developing principles and morals. He will be out on his own soon enough - if you wrap them in cotton wool (and filtered internet DEFINITELY counts) you aren't preparing them.



Slippery slope?  You are a conspiracy theorist. 

Expensive?  Really? So tell me how much this would cost?  You have no idea do you?

Pointless?   If you are not at all concerned about doing more to  protect children, then yes it would be pointless. 

Privacy -- heard of encryption? Really, the whole argument around privacy is moot since the setting can be encrypted.

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  Reply # 865743 25-Jul-2013 11:46
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freitasm: The issue is that the UK government is proposing an blanket opt-in by default - you must opt-out.



So opt-out. 

What is the problem with doing that? 

As long as your setting is encrypted I wouldn't have an issue.  

I do think an opt-in scenario is preferable though. 



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  Reply # 865744 25-Jul-2013 11:47
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insane: [snip]
Of course ISPs should not be expected to provide a blanket service to all users, that's like the transport agencies being responsible for stopping drivers driving to brothels.



This is market forces at work. It's great consumers have a choice to use an ISP (there's more than one in NZ) that have the capability to offer opt-in content filtering. That's GREAT. I LOVE that.

Making every ISP offer it, and making it opt-in by defaul? That's where I have a huge problem.

CHeers - N


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  Reply # 865751 25-Jul-2013 11:48
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NonprayingMantis:
surfisup1000:
AppleJackXD:
How do you accidentally stumble upon porn ? I have never had porn acidently end up on my screen for the almost 20 years i have been using internet.


Well, a 7 year old daughter of a friend was looking for pussycats on the internet.

How on earth would she have known? 


google safe search.  (which I'm pretty sure is on 'moderate' by default)
if you search for pussy and google safe search is on you will not get rude stuff.

in other words,  if she found something rude, then somebody else has used that browser and purposely turned safe search OFF

so an ISP level filtering would not help, since the same person who turned safesearch off would just disable the ISP filter too.


Found this out the hard way one day, was searching for "cream pie" on google images, definitely got the wrong sort come up!

If we are filtering out porn, how about some other objectional material too - 

All religions
Political views I don't agree with
Rugby
Anything to do with the damned Royal Baby
Justin Bieber

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  Reply # 865757 25-Jul-2013 11:53
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Talkiet:
insane: [snip]
Of course ISPs should not be expected to provide a blanket service to all users, that's like the transport agencies being responsible for stopping drivers driving to brothels.



This is market forces at work. It's great consumers have a choice to use an ISP (there's more than one in NZ) that have the capability to offer opt-in content filtering. That's GREAT. I LOVE that.

Making every ISP offer it, and making it opt-in by defaul? That's where I have a huge problem.

CHeers - N



I guess the only problem I can see with opt-in by default is having a few CSRs blush when people call up the ISP and ask 'Can you please enable porn access on my account' ;)

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