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BurningBeard
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  #885774 28-Aug-2013 11:04
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reven: the NZ justice system is a joke, someone a few weeks ago got 6 years for murder... thats not much of a deterrent.


Deterrents or consequences tend not do be at the forefront of the mind of someone who is doing something like that.




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BlueShift
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  #885793 28-Aug-2013 11:29
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BurningBeard:
reven: the NZ justice system is a joke, someone a few weeks ago got 6 years for murder... thats not much of a deterrent.


Deterrents or consequences tend not do be at the forefront of the mind of someone who is doing something like that.


Yup, I'm pretty sure a 16 yr-old beating on a baby isn't pausing to think "well if I stop before I break his head that's less than 12 months, if I pound a bit harder that's about 3 yrs, I should stop now because I don't want more than 3 yrs in prison". They know enough to know that what they are doing isn't right, they just don't care.

reven
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  #885794 28-Aug-2013 11:34
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sure if its only 3 years, but if its 25 years, and they might think "my life will also be over" (not all of them will think that, but hopefully some).

but its also with other crimes, murdering someone in NZ gets you a few years, big whoop. thats not your life over, its theirs, but not yours.


so in theory,

you could murder someone in NZ in your twenties, do a course or two in prison, come out in your late twenties with qualifications, get a job and live a long happy life.  not really justice IMO.



Klipspringer
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  #885796 28-Aug-2013 11:40
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BlueShift:
BurningBeard:
reven: the NZ justice system is a joke, someone a few weeks ago got 6 years for murder... thats not much of a deterrent.


Deterrents or consequences tend not do be at the forefront of the mind of someone who is doing something like that.


Yup, I'm pretty sure a 16 yr-old beating on a baby isn't pausing to think "well if I stop before I break his head that's less than 12 months, if I pound a bit harder that's about 3 yrs, I should stop now because I don't want more than 3 yrs in prison". They know enough to know that what they are doing isn't right, they just don't care.


The 16year old should have gotten more spankings when he was young.

He clearly does not know the difference between right and wrong. If anybody is really responsible here its the 16year old, and his parents.

crackrdbycracku
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  #885797 28-Aug-2013 11:41
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I think the concept of deterrence in criminal sentencing leads to poor outcomes.

Just ask yourself this: How many people committing crimes expect to get caught?

If you don't expect to get caught, and this isn't unreasonable given the realities of law enforcement, there is not deterrence at all. I'm not having a go a the police or anything but the majority of people committing crimes do not get caught.

The idea that "this sentence will deter others" is just silly. The 'others' won't expect to get caught.

The concept of 'appropriate punishment' is also fallacy. What would that be? An eye for an eye? Not that I would object in this case.

The starting point should be 'how do we keep society safe from this person?'. We should apply the same risk management principles we have around such things as workplace safety to criminal justice. The questions should be 'what risk does this person present?' and 'is that level of risk acceptable?'.

This won't happen because it would be very expensive but it is nice to dream.




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JayTaicho
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  #885802 28-Aug-2013 12:00
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I honestly can't even finish reading horrific events like this. It really gets my blood boiling. And the tragic thing is, it's happening every day. There is no real justice for this crime. Taking his sight might be a start. Something really needs to be done about child abuse in this country.

If anyone is interested in following DraftFCB's project on trying to tackle this issue, visit here.

LookingUp
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  #885824 28-Aug-2013 12:24
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crackrdbycracku: ....
The starting point should be 'how do we keep society safe from this person?'.....


If a dog did something like this to a baby, child, or even an adult, there would be a pretty clear outcome.  That this "person" should have a more highly developed sense of right and wrong than a dog only suggests that he is even more deserving of the same punishment.



crackrdbycracku
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  #885828 28-Aug-2013 12:35
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@LookingUp

I agree with your line of logic. Of course, the situation with people is more complicated because we place more value on human life than dog life, that is an assumption for a different thread to address. 




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tdgeek
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  #885929 28-Aug-2013 15:16
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Sentences should have a deterrent aspect and a rehabilitation aspect. This, and others like it in my opinion are at the level where keeping the public safe is the only option. It's a pity that the remainder of his life should be incarceration, but that removes the real possibility of it happening again. Too often it happens again.

Batman
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  #885942 28-Aug-2013 15:45
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Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.


WolfmanNZ
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  #885964 28-Aug-2013 16:25
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crackrdbycracku: @LookingUp

I agree with your line of logic. Of course, the situation with people is more complicated because we place more value on human life than dog life, that is an assumption for a different thread to address. 


Actually would have placed more value on our recently deceased dogs life than this particular scum bag. Our dog was very protective of our children.

crackrdbycracku
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  #885967 28-Aug-2013 16:28
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@WolfmanNZ

And again I find myself in total agreement. 




Didn't anybody tell you I was a hacker?

ScuL
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  #893099 11-Sep-2013 09:59
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I think weak punishments for grave crimes are a symbol of the western world, it's not just the NZ government that suffers from this weakness.
In the UK you can get sentenced to prison for beating up a burglar, even if the burglar forced entry into your property and assaulted you.
In the Netherlands inmates have pay-tv channels and a gaming console in their cells to prevent them from being bored.. and I am not cracking jokes here this is serious.




Haere taka mua, taka muri; kaua e wha.


vexxxboy
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  #894144 11-Sep-2013 11:17
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the problem is that just throwing people into prison with harsh conditions and long sentences just doesnt work in lowering crime, Read this article about what Norway does with its prison's and maybe there is a better way of stopping these people. IE Put the ambulance at the top of the cliff instead off the bottom and start reducing crime. It will never happen here because to many people look at the small picture and not the large one.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1384308/Norways-controversial-cushy-prison-experiment--catch-UK.html




Common sense is not as common as you think.


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