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sdav
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  #899027 20-Sep-2013 14:31

This is as simply as I can put it from where I see it:

Poverty is not the governments fault. It's a community issue that needs a community solution. Just like we shouldn't expect people to have hand outs we shouldn't expect the government to solve the issue alone. Everyone has a role to play and your job doesn't end with paying tax - everyone pays tax, including the poor.

Klipspringer
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  #899030 20-Sep-2013 14:32
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Inphinity:
Klipspringer: 
Does anybody know the actual New Zealand definition for poverty?


The OECD defines 'relative poverty' as having an income less than 50% of the national median (standardised for household size).


That one to me makes no sense.
Because as I mentioned in an earlier post we will always have it. No matter how rich everybody gets in NZ. Give each and every person a $1mill and we still have poverty.

Inphinity: But in terms of 'poverty' - the UN define it as a 'lack of basic capacity to participate effectively in society' - unable to afford food, clothing, housing, education and healthcare

And therein lies part of the issue with simply discussing poverty - you have to specify whether it is absolute or relative. 


This one is interesting and still debatable.

If we use the UN description I still don't believe there are families in New Zealand that don't have access to all that. Education and Healthcare is already available to every New Zealander. And so is housing via WINZ and housing NZ. Affording food and clothes? Well clothes are freely available from many charities. And food? How much does it really cost? Not being able to afford food is not being able to afford a loaf of bread a day.

I think until we get to the NZ definition of the word, we just going to go around in circles here.



MikeB4
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  #899035 20-Sep-2013 14:41
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If one wants a definition of poverty and child poverty there are living definitions in the East Cape and Northland that are easily found and recognised. The living definitions are more obscure in the larger centres but they are there and they are real. 

Although our child poverty rates have dropped they are still amounts some of the highest in the developed world.



Klipspringer
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  #899036 20-Sep-2013 14:42
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KiwiNZ: If one wants a definition of poverty and child poverty there are living definitions in the East Cape and Northland that are easily found and recognised. The living definitions are more obscure in the larger centres but they are there and they are real. 

Although our child poverty rates have dropped they are still amounts some of the highest in the developed world.


fair enough.
Whats your definition of the word "poverty"?

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  #899038 20-Sep-2013 14:45
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Klipspringer:
KiwiNZ: If one wants a definition of poverty and child poverty there are living definitions in the East Cape and Northland that are easily found and recognised. The living definitions are more obscure in the larger centres but they are there and they are real. 

Although our child poverty rates have dropped they are still amounts some of the highest in the developed world.


fair enough.
Whats your definition of the word "poverty"?


The same as the UN's,  the Commissioner for children, MSD etc etc 

Klipspringer
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  #899045 20-Sep-2013 14:57
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KiwiNZ:
Klipspringer:
KiwiNZ: If one wants a definition of poverty and child poverty there are living definitions in the East Cape and Northland that are easily found and recognised. The living definitions are more obscure in the larger centres but they are there and they are real. 

Although our child poverty rates have dropped they are still amounts some of the highest in the developed world.


fair enough.
Whats your definition of the word "poverty"?


The same as the UN's,  the Commissioner for children, MSD etc etc 


Then I have to disagree. Nowhere in NZ have I ever seen/experienced or know of any places where people live like that.

I have been to both East Cape and Northland. I have to admit I have not been off the beaten track in those places, but I still have not experienced poverty by that definition anywhere except for in places like Africa and Asia.

Great place NZ: Everyone has access to food, clothing, housing, education and healthcare. And for those that can't afford it. Most of it is free.


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  #899049 20-Sep-2013 15:02
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Klipspringer:
KiwiNZ:
Klipspringer:
KiwiNZ: If one wants a definition of poverty and child poverty there are living definitions in the East Cape and Northland that are easily found and recognised. The living definitions are more obscure in the larger centres but they are there and they are real. 

Although our child poverty rates have dropped they are still amounts some of the highest in the developed world.


fair enough.
Whats your definition of the word "poverty"?


The same as the UN's,  the Commissioner for children, MSD etc etc 


Then I have to disagree. Nowhere in NZ have I ever seen/experienced or know of any places where people live like that.

I have been to both East Cape and Northland. I have to admit I have not been off the beaten track in those places, but I still have not experienced poverty by that definition anywhere except for in places like Africa and Asia.

Great place NZ: Everyone has access to food, clothing, housing, education and healthcare. And for those that can't afford it. Most of it is free.



I can't and wont try to make people see that what the do not want to see.

http://www.occ.org.nz/



Handsomedan
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  #899052 20-Sep-2013 15:06
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Poverty is not the Government's fault...but sadly I believe it IS the Government's problem...






Handsome Dan Has Spoken.
Handsome Dan needs to stop adding three dots to every sentence...

 

Handsome Dan does not currently have a side hustle as the mascot for Yale 

 

 

 

*Gladly accepting donations...


MikeB4
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  #899054 20-Sep-2013 15:09
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Klipspringer:
KiwiNZ:
Klipspringer:
KiwiNZ: If one wants a definition of poverty and child poverty there are living definitions in the East Cape and Northland that are easily found and recognised. The living definitions are more obscure in the larger centres but they are there and they are real. 

Although our child poverty rates have dropped they are still amounts some of the highest in the developed world.


fair enough.
Whats your definition of the word "poverty"?


The same as the UN's,  the Commissioner for children, MSD etc etc 


Then I have to disagree. Nowhere in NZ have I ever seen/experienced or know of any places where people live like that.

I have been to both East Cape and Northland. I have to admit I have not been off the beaten track in those places, but I still have not experienced poverty by that definition anywhere except for in places like Africa and Asia.

Great place NZ: Everyone has access to food, clothing, housing, education and healthcare. And for those that can't afford it. Most of it is free.



The alarming and still rising rates of Rheumatic Fever in New Zealand is at odd with you belief. This is a direct link to overcrowding and chid poverty.

Klipspringer
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  #899057 20-Sep-2013 15:11
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KiwiNZ:
Klipspringer:
KiwiNZ:
Klipspringer:
KiwiNZ: If one wants a definition of poverty and child poverty there are living definitions in the East Cape and Northland that are easily found and recognised. The living definitions are more obscure in the larger centres but they are there and they are real. 

Although our child poverty rates have dropped they are still amounts some of the highest in the developed world.


fair enough.
Whats your definition of the word "poverty"?


The same as the UN's,  the Commissioner for children, MSD etc etc 


Then I have to disagree. Nowhere in NZ have I ever seen/experienced or know of any places where people live like that.

I have been to both East Cape and Northland. I have to admit I have not been off the beaten track in those places, but I still have not experienced poverty by that definition anywhere except for in places like Africa and Asia.

Great place NZ: Everyone has access to food, clothing, housing, education and healthcare. And for those that can't afford it. Most of it is free.



I can't and wont try to make people see that what the do not want to see.

http://www.occ.org.nz/


Shocking I agree.

But by your very own definition its not "poverty". Part poverty yes.

But not 'lack of basic capacity to participate effectively in society' - unable to afford food, clothing, housing, education and healthcare

From your link:
Child poverty involves material deprivation and hardship. It means, for instance, a much higher chance of having insufficient nutritious food, going to school hungry, wearing worn-out shoes or going barefoot, having inadequate clothing, living in a cold, damp house and sleeping in a shared bed. It often means missing out on activities that most New Zealanders take for granted, like playing sport and having a birthday party. It can also mean much narrower horizons – such as rarely travelling far from home. For instance, many children in low-income families in the Hutt Valley and in Porirua have never been the short distance to Wellington city (The Dominion Post, 27-28 October, 2012). A major reason is because their families cannot afford the very modest transport costs. This is not the kind of country most New Zealanders experience or know much about. But it is the harsh reality for many of our children.


Even the very report in the link you supplied seems to define a different definition for the word.

IMO being unable to afford transport is not poverty. Not even as per your very own definition.

Klipspringer
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  #899062 20-Sep-2013 15:18
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KiwiNZ:
The alarming and still rising rates of Rheumatic Fever in New Zealand is at odd with you belief. This is a direct link to overcrowding and chid poverty.


Also from the link you provided:

New Zealand has no agreed definition of poverty or official poverty measures. Without an authoritative definition and widely accepted measures we will lack a common purpose or agreed goals. Likewise, we will be less able to develop focused solutions to child poverty or evaluate their success in achieving specified poverty-reduction targets. Accordingly, we need a clear definition and agreed measures.


I think there lies the answer to most of this. Without a clear definition its pointless trying to solve it.
At the end of the day, what exactly are we trying to achieve? We cant eliminate child poverty if we don't know what it is.

MikeB4
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  #899067 20-Sep-2013 15:29
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Klipspringer:
KiwiNZ:
Klipspringer:
KiwiNZ:
Klipspringer:
KiwiNZ: If one wants a definition of poverty and child poverty there are living definitions in the East Cape and Northland that are easily found and recognised. The living definitions are more obscure in the larger centres but they are there and they are real. 

Although our child poverty rates have dropped they are still amounts some of the highest in the developed world.


fair enough.
Whats your definition of the word "poverty"?


The same as the UN's,  the Commissioner for children, MSD etc etc 


Then I have to disagree. Nowhere in NZ have I ever seen/experienced or know of any places where people live like that.

I have been to both East Cape and Northland. I have to admit I have not been off the beaten track in those places, but I still have not experienced poverty by that definition anywhere except for in places like Africa and Asia.

Great place NZ: Everyone has access to food, clothing, housing, education and healthcare. And for those that can't afford it. Most of it is free.



I can't and wont try to make people see that what the do not want to see.

http://www.occ.org.nz/


Shocking I agree.

But by your very own definition its not "poverty". Part poverty yes.

But not 'lack of basic capacity to participate effectively in society' - unable to afford food, clothing, housing, education and healthcare

From your link:
Child poverty involves material deprivation and hardship. It means, for instance, a much higher chance of having insufficient nutritious food, going to school hungry, wearing worn-out shoes or going barefoot, having inadequate clothing, living in a cold, damp house and sleeping in a shared bed. It often means missing out on activities that most New Zealanders take for granted, like playing sport and having a birthday party. It can also mean much narrower horizons – such as rarely travelling far from home. For instance, many children in low-income families in the Hutt Valley and in Porirua have never been the short distance to Wellington city (The Dominion Post, 27-28 October, 2012). A major reason is because their families cannot afford the very modest transport costs. This is not the kind of country most New Zealanders experience or know much about. But it is the harsh reality for many of our children.


Even the very report in the link you supplied seems to define a different definition for the word.

IMO being unable to afford transport is not poverty. Not even as per your very own definition.


If you are caught in a Poverty trap in the middle of the East Cape, you have no employment due to the last employer (probably a meat works) has closed down, you have nothing in the bank, you cannot leave because you cannot afford to leave, you cannot take yourself or kids to the Doctor as he/she is 150KM away and you have 
no transport. You have no food in the fridge/ freezer and the Government is closing the school  as it is no longer economic to retain it. The nearest WINZ office is also 150KM away so you cannot visit there.  This is not an exaggeration it is a scenario I dealt with on a daily basis, in East Cape Northland. And similar in Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch Hamilton..... The only difference there were the distances concerned.

 

Absolute poverty in New Zealand is very very rare, but poverty exists. Fundamentally, poverty is the inability of getting choices and opportunities, a violation of human dignity. It means lack of basic capacity to participate effectively in society. It means not having enough to feed and clothe a family, not having a school or clinic to go to, not having the land on which to grow one’s food or a job to earn one’s living, not having access to credit. It means insecurity, powerlessness and exclusion of individuals, households and communities. It means susceptibility to violence, and it often implies living in marginal or fragile environments, without access to clean water or sanitation. Poverty is pronounced deprivation in well-being, and comprises many dimensions. It includes low incomes and the inability to acquire the basic goods and services necessary for survival with dignity. Poverty also encompasses low levels of health and education, poor access to clean water and sanitation, inadequate physical security, lack of voice, and insufficient capacity and opportunity to better one’s life.

It is not just the governments fault or responsibility it is the whole of society, we all have a role in creating it and we can all have a role in eliminating it.

 

 

MikeB4
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  #899069 20-Sep-2013 15:31
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Klipspringer:
KiwiNZ:
The alarming and still rising rates of Rheumatic Fever in New Zealand is at odd with you belief. This is a direct link to overcrowding and chid poverty.


Also from the link you provided:

New Zealand has no agreed definition of poverty or official poverty measures. Without an authoritative definition and widely accepted measures we will lack a common purpose or agreed goals. Likewise, we will be less able to develop focused solutions to child poverty or evaluate their success in achieving specified poverty-reduction targets. Accordingly, we need a clear definition and agreed measures.


I think there lies the answer to most of this. Without a clear definition its pointless trying to solve it.
At the end of the day, what exactly are we trying to achieve? We cant eliminate child poverty if we don't know what it is.


You may not know what it is, there are however many professionals and government agencies that do.

Geekamouse

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  #899073 20-Sep-2013 15:40
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sdav: This is as simply as I can put it from where I see it:

Poverty is not the governments fault. It's a community issue that needs a community solution. Just like we shouldn't expect people to have hand outs we shouldn't expect the government to solve the issue alone. Everyone has a role to play and your job doesn't end with paying tax - everyone pays tax, including the poor.



Bleating that "The government should do something about it" carries the implication that I'm not prepared to put my hand in my pocket or give up my time.  It's unreasonable to expect an unwieldy and politically driven beast like the government to solve all community problems.  How many of us regularly contribute time or money to community initiatives to alleviate the effects of poverty?  What would happen to a government at election time if it promised to raise income tax by, say 5%. to pay for poverty relief?  Nah, probably not.

So, everybody out there whose seriously concerned about poverty in our society: when will you sign up to or start a simple local community poverty relief action group to identify and help the poor and needy in your locality.

Klipspringer
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  #899074 20-Sep-2013 15:41
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KiwiNZ:
If you are caught in a Poverty trap in the middle of the East Cape, you have no employment due to the last employer (probably a meat works) has closed down, you have nothing in the bank, you cannot leave because you cannot afford to leave, you cannot take yourself or kids to the Doctor as he/she is 150KM away and you have 
no transport. You have no food in the fridge/ freezer and the Government is closing the school  as it is no longer economic to retain it. The nearest WINZ office is also 150KM away so you cannot visit there.  This is not an exaggeration it is a scenario I dealt with on a daily basis, in East Cape Northland. And similar in Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch Hamilton..... The only difference there were the distances concerned. Absolute poverty in New Zealand is very very rare, but poverty exists. Fundamentally, poverty is the inability of getting choices and opportunities, a violation of human dignity. It means lack of basic capacity to participate effectively in society. It means not having enough to feed and clothe a family, not having a school or clinic to go to, not having the land on which to grow one’s food or a job to earn one’s living, not having access to credit. It means insecurity, powerlessness and exclusion of individuals, households and communities. It means susceptibility to violence, and it often implies living in marginal or fragile environments, without access to clean water or sanitation. Poverty is pronounced deprivation in well-being, and comprises many dimensions. It includes low incomes and the inability to acquire the basic goods and services necessary for survival with dignity. Poverty also encompasses low levels of health and education, poor access to clean water and sanitation, inadequate physical security, lack of voice, and insufficient capacity and opportunity to better one’s life.

It is not just the governments fault or responsibility it is the whole of society, we all have a role in creating it and we can all have a role in eliminating it.  


This is interesting. We have a solution offered here by the government. But you saying that because the solution is too far away its not good enough?

Heck. In Africa people would make a plan to travel hundreds of km's just to carry water. But in the example you have highlighted people wont try and make a plan to go and get "free" money from WINZ.  Sorry I don't buy it. It reminds me of the old saying, where theirs a will, there is a way. But to have a way. One needs a will. It leaves me believing that some choose to live this way (and bleat about it)

I will move to whatever town I need to if I have to find work. In fact, thats one of the reasons I live in Wellington. Receiving WINZ payments should be no different. Move closer then, its free money. At the end of the day you can't force people to take it.

You said earlier.

KiwiNZ:
The sweeping and in many cases needed reforms made under the Lange Government resulted in a considerable rise in child poverty and general poverty in New Zealand. So Yes a government can cause poverty and some of the changes made by the current government in the areas of Health, Education, Employment have and will exacerbate poverty.

Inactivity by a Government to address the issue is the Governments fault, not just this one but most Governments since WW2.


Now going back in history. Ie before Pakeha arrived in NZ. Did we have poverty then? If we did, then there is no ways that the government could have caused it.

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