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MikeB4
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  #899076 20-Sep-2013 15:45
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Klipspringer:
KiwiNZ:
If you are caught in a Poverty trap in the middle of the East Cape, you have no employment due to the last employer (probably a meat works) has closed down, you have nothing in the bank, you cannot leave because you cannot afford to leave, you cannot take yourself or kids to the Doctor as he/she is 150KM away and you have 
no transport. You have no food in the fridge/ freezer and the Government is closing the school  as it is no longer economic to retain it. The nearest WINZ office is also 150KM away so you cannot visit there.  This is not an exaggeration it is a scenario I dealt with on a daily basis, in East Cape Northland. And similar in Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch Hamilton..... The only difference there were the distances concerned. Absolute poverty in New Zealand is very very rare, but poverty exists. Fundamentally, poverty is the inability of getting choices and opportunities, a violation of human dignity. It means lack of basic capacity to participate effectively in society. It means not having enough to feed and clothe a family, not having a school or clinic to go to, not having the land on which to grow one’s food or a job to earn one’s living, not having access to credit. It means insecurity, powerlessness and exclusion of individuals, households and communities. It means susceptibility to violence, and it often implies living in marginal or fragile environments, without access to clean water or sanitation. Poverty is pronounced deprivation in well-being, and comprises many dimensions. It includes low incomes and the inability to acquire the basic goods and services necessary for survival with dignity. Poverty also encompasses low levels of health and education, poor access to clean water and sanitation, inadequate physical security, lack of voice, and insufficient capacity and opportunity to better one’s life.

It is not just the governments fault or responsibility it is the whole of society, we all have a role in creating it and we can all have a role in eliminating it.  


This is interesting. We have a solution offered here by the government. But you saying that because the solution is too far away its not good enough?

Heck. In Africa people would make a plan to travel hundreds of km's just to carry water. But in the example you have highlighted people wont try and make a plan to go and get "free" money from WINZ.  Sorry I don't buy it. It reminds me of the old saying, where theirs a will, there is a way. But to have a way. One needs a will. It leaves me believing that some choose to live this way.

I will move to whatever town I need to if I have to find work. In fact, thats one of the reasons I live in Wellington. Receiving WINZ payments should be no different. Move closer then, its free money. At the end of the day you can't force people to take it.

You said earlier.

KiwiNZ:
The sweeping and in many cases needed reforms made under the Lange Government resulted in a considerable rise in child poverty and general poverty in New Zealand. So Yes a government can cause poverty and some of the changes made by the current government in the areas of Health, Education, Employment have and will exacerbate poverty.

Inactivity by a Government to address the issue is the Governments fault, not just this one but most Governments since WW2.


Now going back in history. Ie before Pakeha arrived in NZ. Did we have poverty then? If we did, then there is no ways that the government could have caused it.


Good grief

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Fred99
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  #899077 20-Sep-2013 15:50
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Klipspringer: 

But not 'lack of basic capacity to participate effectively in society' - unable to afford food, clothing, housing, education and healthcare



There's plenty of evidence that many of the poorest children in our society aren't provided with adequate food, clothing, housing, and healthcare, and that impacts on their education.
You seem to think that arguing about definition of "relative" poverty excuses you from recognising that there is a problem in NZ.
If you stick with the dictionary definition or etymology of the word "poverty", and open your eyes a bit, perhaps you'll see. 


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  #899080 20-Sep-2013 15:54
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Fred99:
Klipspringer: 

But not 'lack of basic capacity to participate effectively in society' - unable to afford food, clothing, housing, education and healthcare



There's plenty of evidence that many of the poorest children in our society aren't provided with adequate food, clothing, housing, and healthcare, and that impacts on their education.
You seem to think that arguing about definition of "relative" poverty excuses you from recognising that there is a problem in NZ.
If you stick with the dictionary definition or etymology of the word "poverty", and open your eyes a bit, perhaps you'll see. 



Plus the obligatory xkcd reference for good measure: http://xkcd.com/725/

Jon



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  #899082 20-Sep-2013 15:56
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Handsomedan: Poverty is not the Government's fault...but sadly I believe it IS the Government's problem...




I think this is a misconception as well. It makes for good election headlines and I don't see a lot of people question it. A government cannot solve a problem of 'poverty' (still awaiting an actual definition that applies to NZ) by itself because in the majority of cases of real poverty they exist because the people choose or make choices to remain there.

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  #899089 20-Sep-2013 15:59
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Fred99: 
There's plenty of evidence that many of the poorest children in our society aren't provided with adequate food, clothing, housing, and healthcare, and that impacts on their education.


This is, without doubt, true. However, the topic in question is whether or not it is the governments fault, is it not? To which I would still argue, that in most cases, it is not. I would argue that, in many of these cases, the parents of said children have the power to change things, but they either do not realise that, or they choose to not act on it. If it is the former, then education for said parents is required. If it is the latter, then removing their children into proper care is required. But how well would that go down... go and take all the children who are living in poverty, and put them in a government-run camp away from their families.

Klipspringer
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  #899094 20-Sep-2013 16:07
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Fred99:
Klipspringer: 

But not 'lack of basic capacity to participate effectively in society' - unable to afford food, clothing, housing, education and healthcare



There's plenty of evidence that many of the poorest children in our society aren't provided with adequate food, clothing, housing, and healthcare, and that impacts on their education.
You seem to think that arguing about definition of "relative" poverty excuses you from recognising that there is a problem in NZ.
If you stick with the dictionary definition or etymology of the word "poverty", and open your eyes a bit, perhaps you'll see. 



I'm not denying that.

IMO the majority of those cases are the parents fault. Those children are living in homes with parents who are NOT living the same level of so called poverty. (yet their children do)

I dont think there is a household shotage of cash in most cases (ie unable to afford food, clothing etc...) Its just the household distribution of that cash. Unfortunately booze, cigarettes and drugs seem to be on the top of these family shopping lists.



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  #899095 20-Sep-2013 16:11
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Klipspringer:
Fred99:
Klipspringer: 

But not 'lack of basic capacity to participate effectively in society' - unable to afford food, clothing, housing, education and healthcare



There's plenty of evidence that many of the poorest children in our society aren't provided with adequate food, clothing, housing, and healthcare, and that impacts on their education.
You seem to think that arguing about definition of "relative" poverty excuses you from recognising that there is a problem in NZ.
If you stick with the dictionary definition or etymology of the word "poverty", and open your eyes a bit, perhaps you'll see. 



I'm not denying that.

IMO the majority of those cases are the parents fault. Those children are living in homes with parents who are NOT living the same level of so called poverty. (yet their children do)

I dont think there is a household shotage of cash in most cases (ie unable to afford food, clothing etc...) Its just the household distribution of that cash. Unfortunately booze, cigarettes and drugs seem to be on the top of these family shopping lists.




There is an element of that but it is a small percentage. However even for those cases where there is an element of parental cause child poverty still exists and needs to be dealt with. And again the cases where there is apparent parental cause it is not necessarily the actual cause. 



Fred99
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  #899097 20-Sep-2013 16:14
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KiwiNZ:
Klipspringer: 

Now going back in history. Ie before Pakeha arrived in NZ. Did we have poverty then? If we did, then there is no ways that the government could have caused it.


Good grief


I know no comment should be needed after that.
It just pays to remember that on average, life was probably worse for the average person "back home" in the old country in those days.  Life expectancy at birth was only about the mid thirties, a "work week" was about 80 hours.  At various times in "our" history, there was always the risk you'd get boiled in oil, drawn and quartered, flogged to death, burned at the stake etc. if you offended the king, god - or one of his appointees, someone else important, or committed some minor transgression.  Throw in a few famines and wars, and your chances of succumbing to poverty and destitution as a result of "government" was pretty high.


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  #899103 20-Sep-2013 16:19
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Government meaning the tax payer, some how I knew it would be my fault




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MikeB4
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  #899106 20-Sep-2013 16:22
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jeffnz: Government meaning the tax payer, some how I knew it would be my fault


I don't believe that finding fault is of use, seeing the issue and finding remedies fights poverty, the former only provides a vehicle for which people can ride to say it's not my problem. 

jeffnz
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  #899107 20-Sep-2013 16:30
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KiwiNZ:
jeffnz: Government meaning the tax payer, some how I knew it would be my fault


I don't believe that finding fault is of use, seeing the issue and finding remedies fights poverty, the former only provides a vehicle for which people can ride to say it's not my problem. 


its Friday it was humor my apologies for not indicating it was a joke.

To be real honest, it isn't my problem but a fair percentage of my tax goes to funding poverty. 




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jeffnz
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  #899111 20-Sep-2013 16:35
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KiwiNZ:
jeffnz: Government meaning the tax payer, some how I knew it would be my fault


I don't believe that finding fault is of use, seeing the issue and finding remedies fights poverty, the former only provides a vehicle for which people can ride to say it's not my problem. 


"It is not just the governments fault or responsibility it is the whole of society, we all have a role in creating it and we can all have a role in eliminating it." 

ok so I'm confused if its not about finding fault what were you trying to say with the above post or am I just taking it out of context.

and then we have those that are just good at pointing out the issues without any real solutions





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  #899114 20-Sep-2013 16:36
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jeffnz: Government meaning the tax payer, some how I knew it would be my fault



Yes, it's all your fault.  How could you be so mean and nasty? - BA*T*RD!

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  #899116 20-Sep-2013 16:39
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KiwiNZ:
Klipspringer:
Fred99:
Klipspringer: 

But not 'lack of basic capacity to participate effectively in society' - unable to afford food, clothing, housing, education and healthcare



There's plenty of evidence that many of the poorest children in our society aren't provided with adequate food, clothing, housing, and healthcare, and that impacts on their education.
You seem to think that arguing about definition of "relative" poverty excuses you from recognising that there is a problem in NZ.
If you stick with the dictionary definition or etymology of the word "poverty", and open your eyes a bit, perhaps you'll see. 



I'm not denying that.

IMO the majority of those cases are the parents fault. Those children are living in homes with parents who are NOT living the same level of so called poverty. (yet their children do)

I dont think there is a household shotage of cash in most cases (ie unable to afford food, clothing etc...) Its just the household distribution of that cash. Unfortunately booze, cigarettes and drugs seem to be on the top of these family shopping lists.




There is an element of that but it is a small percentage. However even for those cases where there is an element of parental cause child poverty still exists and needs to be dealt with. And again the cases where there is apparent parental cause it is not necessarily the actual cause. 


This is not true. Even for someone with the smallest income (welfare or a minimum wage position) there is always adequate funds to meet basic human needs like food, shelter, and education. If that money is mismanaged then basic human needs might go unmet but that is an active choice on behalf of someone, not unavoidable poverty.

MikeB4
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  #899119 20-Sep-2013 16:43
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1080p:
KiwiNZ:
Klipspringer:
Fred99:
Klipspringer: 

But not 'lack of basic capacity to participate effectively in society' - unable to afford food, clothing, housing, education and healthcare



There's plenty of evidence that many of the poorest children in our society aren't provided with adequate food, clothing, housing, and healthcare, and that impacts on their education.
You seem to think that arguing about definition of "relative" poverty excuses you from recognising that there is a problem in NZ.
If you stick with the dictionary definition or etymology of the word "poverty", and open your eyes a bit, perhaps you'll see. 



I'm not denying that.

IMO the majority of those cases are the parents fault. Those children are living in homes with parents who are NOT living the same level of so called poverty. (yet their children do)

I dont think there is a household shotage of cash in most cases (ie unable to afford food, clothing etc...) Its just the household distribution of that cash. Unfortunately booze, cigarettes and drugs seem to be on the top of these family shopping lists.




There is an element of that but it is a small percentage. However even for those cases where there is an element of parental cause child poverty still exists and needs to be dealt with. And again the cases where there is apparent parental cause it is not necessarily the actual cause. 


This is not true. Even for someone with the smallest income (welfare or a minimum wage position) there is always adequate funds to meet basic human needs like food, shelter, and education. If that money is mismanaged then basic human needs might go unmet but that is an active choice on behalf of someone, not unavoidable poverty.


with respect, you are not correct.

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