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alasta
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  #906136 2-Oct-2013 08:48
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I'm astounded that you haven't thought of the blindingly obvious solution that is 100% effective.

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matisyahu
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  #906839 3-Oct-2013 05:54
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PaulBags:
kawaii:
Klipspringer:
With bills to pay and a baby on the way, Wellington parking warden Esau Taniela tackles a 68-hour working week to bring home $719, while his pregnant partner works three jobs. 


http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/9200190/When-working-a-68-hour-week-still-doesn-t-cut-it

And a simple google search brings up his facebook profile displaying plenty of photos which contradict the whole story.



Lets take it on face value - struggling to pay the bills and yet pregnant with yet another child? "hey, we're struggling to make ends meet! I know, lets have another child because it must magially make things easier by having another mouth to feed!".

Notice btw, the complete lack of any specifics in the article - there are genuinely needy people out there but most of the time I find that that those who make the most noise tend to be the ones who got themselves into trouble the first place.

As for him 'struggling' on $719 - poor snookums, maybe he can live on the $513 per week I live on after paying tax and student loan - I'm on a salary and routinely do more than 50 hours per week doing the late shifts.

Regarding sensationalism - lets remember the lady who 'died after drinking too much coke' only to find that after a few minutes of using Google I actually found that she was a chain smoking mum with multiple kids, teeth pulled out and warned numerous times by her GP about the impact of her unhealthy lifestyle but of course all those details were left out by stuff.co.nz because god forbid having some balance.


A) We do not have at will abortion in this country, so you can't fault her for being pregnant unless she specifically set out to become so.
B) Caffeine is highly addictive, so is sugar, so is nicotine. Might seem all well and good to say 'just stop', but it actually doesn't work like that. Somehow she would have to deal with the stress of life that she already wasn't dealing with, while raising a kid, while fighting multiple withdrawal symptoms. Now if she could actually get some help, and/or coke would admit how addictive their product is, she might have had a chance.


Getting an abortion isn't as difficult as you try to make out - heck, I know this one girl who has already had five! if the restrictions were so onerous then how does one explain five abortions on the count that she doesn't like the feel of condoms and the pill makes her podgy? As for using protection; please, use a condom and the pill - and for christ sake keep in contact with your doctor so that any other medication or lifestyle choices are taken into account. Honestly, what is it with people grasping at straws of unlikely scenarios to justify their own bad behaviour?




"When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called 'the People's Stick'"

 


Athlonite
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  #906842 3-Oct-2013 06:07
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alasta: I'm astounded that you haven't thought of the blindingly obvious solution that is 100% effective.


Oral or **** (starts with A ends in L)



alasta
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  #906872 3-Oct-2013 08:41
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Athlonite:
alasta: I'm astounded that you haven't thought of the blindingly obvious solution that is 100% effective.


Oral or **** (starts with A ends in L)


Lol! Not what my socially conservative mind was thinking!

Athlonite
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#906907 3-Oct-2013 09:25
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alasta:
Athlonite:
alasta: I'm astounded that you haven't thought of the blindingly obvious solution that is 100% effective.


Oral or **** (starts with A ends in L)


Lol! Not what my socially conservative mind was thinking!


Imagination aint it a wonderful thing ;)

Geektastic
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  #906924 3-Oct-2013 09:53
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1080p:
hangon: One question, what would happen to the other guy, who trained and got a pay rise to $18.4 last month?

Does he get a similar bump to say $23.4 after "living wage" is implemented? Or just rinse n repeat and try get another pay rise (if employer can afford) next year?




This is the crux of the issue, really, and one most living wage supporters refuse to face. In order to retain valued staff wages will be forced to move upwards at the same or similar rate as the new 'minimum wage' does. An incredibly basic understanding of economics means that prices will rise because supply and demand remain unchanged and in a few months/years we will be back in the same place as we are now.


Based on former NZ history when the "generous" 4 week holiday entitlement came in (one week less than I had in the UK on leaving University in 1990 and 2 weeks less than I had when I left my last job there 17 years later) where those on 4 weeks did not generally suddenly get 5 weeks, I would say that the person on living wage effectively found his skills devalued and he is now on what is in effect just a new name for the minimum wage.





PaulBags
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  #906959 3-Oct-2013 11:06
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Athlonite:
alasta:
Athlonite:
alasta: I'm astounded that you haven't thought of the blindingly obvious solution that is 100% effective.


Oral or **** (starts with A ends in L)


Lol! Not what my socially conservative mind was thinking!


Imagination aint it a wonderful thing ;)
Also %100 effective ;p



PaulBags
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  #906972 3-Oct-2013 11:34
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kawaii: Getting an abortion isn't as difficult as you try to make out - heck, I know this one girl who has already had five! if the restrictions were so onerous then how does one explain five abortions on the count that she doesn't like the feel of condoms and the pill makes her podgy? As for using protection; please, use a condom and the pill - and for christ sake keep in contact with your doctor so that any other medication or lifestyle choices are taken into account. Honestly, what is it with people grasping at straws of unlikely scenarios to justify their own bad behaviour?
Well for one thing that's illegal, and that woman and her doctors should be up on charges. Source (I can't be bothered finding others, google if you need it). Not that I agree with the law, and I'm sure it's skirted/broken often, but that doesn't change the fact that to get an abortion as easily as you claim is illegal.

As for bad behaviour, well I'm not sure where the bad behaviour is in deciding not to kill an unintended foetus. People make mistakes and contraception can fail. To me, the worse behaviour is this willful lack of understanding and/or compassion for people who find themselves in dire straights despite working their buns off.

minimoke
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  #907999 4-Oct-2013 16:54
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PaulBags:
kawaii: Getting an abortion isn't as difficult as you try to make out - heck, I know this one girl who has already had five! if the restrictions were so onerous then how does one explain five abortions on the count that she doesn't like the feel of condoms and the pill makes her podgy? As for using protection; please, use a condom and the pill - and for christ sake keep in contact with your doctor so that any other medication or lifestyle choices are taken into account. Honestly, what is it with people grasping at straws of unlikely scenarios to justify their own bad behaviour?
Well for one thing that's illegal, and that woman and her doctors should be up on charges. Source (I can't be bothered finding others, google if you need it). Not that I agree with the law, and I'm sure it's skirted/broken often, but that doesn't change the fact that to get an abortion as easily as you claim is illegal.

As for bad behaviour, well I'm not sure where the bad behaviour is in deciding not to kill an unintended foetus. People make mistakes and contraception can fail. To me, the worse behaviour is this willful lack of understanding and/or compassion for people who find themselves in dire straights despite working their buns off.

 

There is something like 82 births per 1,000 child rearing age women. So around 92% of the female population manage to not get pregnant. It is a darn site easier to not get pregnant than it is to get pregnant. 

Pregnancy, on the whole, can be put down to two things.

One is a desire to have a child. Whether the tax payer should subside that remains moot but I am unmoved by me view that the tax payer should not be involved.

Secondly it is an unintended consequence most likely caused by a potent mix of lust and stupidity. I’m not sure I’ve seen any argument suggesting the tax payer should front up for these event.

I’m not sure which camp the OP’s council worker falls in. But given the Churches were part of the initial meeting I suspect there is an element of “breed at will”

1080p
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  #909270 7-Oct-2013 12:08
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Geektastic:
1080p:
hangon: One question, what would happen to the other guy, who trained and got a pay rise to $18.4 last month?

Does he get a similar bump to say $23.4 after "living wage" is implemented? Or just rinse n repeat and try get another pay rise (if employer can afford) next year?




This is the crux of the issue, really, and one most living wage supporters refuse to face. In order to retain valued staff wages will be forced to move upwards at the same or similar rate as the new 'minimum wage' does. An incredibly basic understanding of economics means that prices will rise because supply and demand remain unchanged and in a few months/years we will be back in the same place as we are now.


Based on former NZ history when the "generous" 4 week holiday entitlement came in (one week less than I had in the UK on leaving University in 1990 and 2 weeks less than I had when I left my last job there 17 years later) where those on 4 weeks did not generally suddenly get 5 weeks, I would say that the person on living wage effectively found his skills devalued and he is now on what is in effect just a new name for the minimum wage.


Sure, but as the market realises that unskilled labour attracts the same wage as work requiring skilled labour the pay rates for the skilled labour will rise. It'll happen first for people changing jobs but will eventually spread to everyone save those who are too afraid to ask for pay rises. Comparing between countries does little to help.

PaulBags
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  #909490 7-Oct-2013 19:32
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minimoke: ... Secondly it is an unintended consequence most likely caused by a potent mix of lust and stupidity. I’m not sure I’ve seen any argument suggesting the tax payer should front up for these event. ...

Well how about that the child is innocent in this circumstance, and shouldn't have to stave because of it's parents stupidity. This isn't africa, we can actually do something to stop children from starving here.

Now, whether such irresponsible people should be allowed to keep their own children in the first place, I for one say 'no, why should they?'. Frankly I think it's in societies interest to keep children from being raised in such an envrionment and letting the cycle continue.

Ragnor
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  #909776 8-Oct-2013 12:07
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PaulBags: 
Well how about that the child is innocent in this circumstance, and shouldn't have to stave because of it's parents stupidity. This isn't africa, we can actually do something to stop children from starving here.

Now, whether such irresponsible people should be allowed to keep their own children in the first place, I for one say 'no, why should they?'. Frankly I think it's in societies interest to keep children from being raised in such an envrionment and letting the cycle continue.


More welfare attempts to treat the symptom not the cause and probably won't even succeed at that.

When children suffering because of their parents mis-spending of existing welfare money, how is more welfare money going to fix the problem really?



nickb800
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  #909822 8-Oct-2013 13:06
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Ragnor:
PaulBags: 
Well how about that the child is innocent in this circumstance, and shouldn't have to stave because of it's parents stupidity. This isn't africa, we can actually do something to stop children from starving here.

Now, whether such irresponsible people should be allowed to keep their own children in the first place, I for one say 'no, why should they?'. Frankly I think it's in societies interest to keep children from being raised in such an envrionment and letting the cycle continue.


More welfare attempts to treat the symptom not the cause and probably won't even succeed at that.

When children suffering because of their parents mis-spending of existing welfare money, how is more welfare money going to fix the problem really?




Having an ambulance at the bottom of a cliff is a tired expression, but it is still a good idea. This is a complex problem, you need BOTH a fence at the top of the cliff (raise incomes, reduce povery, discourage incapable people from having kids, etc) and an ambulance at the bottom (welfare payments to people with kids, etc). People will slip through the cracks or abuse the system, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to help those who we can reach.


Welfare is never going to be perfect, as soon as you offer to help someone you will distort their incentives to sort things out for themselves. The fact that we have a welfare system suggests that most people accept a comprimise

Geektastic
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  #909874 8-Oct-2013 14:03
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nickb800:
Ragnor:
PaulBags: 
Well how about that the child is innocent in this circumstance, and shouldn't have to stave because of it's parents stupidity. This isn't africa, we can actually do something to stop children from starving here.

Now, whether such irresponsible people should be allowed to keep their own children in the first place, I for one say 'no, why should they?'. Frankly I think it's in societies interest to keep children from being raised in such an envrionment and letting the cycle continue.


More welfare attempts to treat the symptom not the cause and probably won't even succeed at that.

When children suffering because of their parents mis-spending of existing welfare money, how is more welfare money going to fix the problem really?




Having an ambulance at the bottom of a cliff is a tired expression, but it is still a good idea. This is a complex problem, you need BOTH a fence at the top of the cliff (raise incomes, reduce povery, discourage incapable people from having kids, etc) and an ambulance at the bottom (welfare payments to people with kids, etc). People will slip through the cracks or abuse the system, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to help those who we can reach.


Welfare is never going to be perfect, as soon as you offer to help someone you will distort their incentives to sort things out for themselves. The fact that we have a welfare system suggests that most people accept a comprimise


On the other hand, if starving to death is the consequence of stupidity I have a feeling we will soon see less stupidity.





PaulBags
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  #910052 8-Oct-2013 19:48
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Geektastic: On the other hand, if starving to death is the consequence of stupidity I have a feeling we will soon see less stupidity.

Letting someone die because of someone elses stupidity doesn't sit right with me. We need to treat the vulnerable a little better than that.

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