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graemeh
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  #929892 9-Nov-2013 11:10
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freitasm: Of course evidence is required. I am not disputing that.

What I am doubtful is that evidence was actually sought.


Yes and none of us really know what evidence there was.

It has been reported that it would have been her word against theirs.  In the absence of any other evidence it is most unlikely the case would succeed.

We will just have to wait for the IPCA report.

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ubergeeknz
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  #929895 9-Nov-2013 11:21
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You wouldn't think it hard to canvass some witnesses at least, but it seems like they did nothing.  And what kind of assertion is it that her word is worth any less than theirs?  Surely this is something for the courts to decide?

shrub
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  #929971 9-Nov-2013 13:54
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NZ Police can send choppers and 72 cops for a copyright case but they're powerless to act against a rape gang with public social media pages @KimDotcom

So true...



jpoc
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  #929983 9-Nov-2013 14:23
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Remember, when John Banks was accused of electoral expenses fraud, the police looked at the case. They decided not to prosecute a man whose vote in our parliament was essential to propping up a minority government about to face some tricky votes in said parliament. In that case, they seem to have "decided" that in fact there was no offence.

Then an individual used the available evidence to attempt to bring a private prosecution against Banks. A court listened to an outline of that evidence and made its decision to the effect that there were reasonable grounds to believe that an offence had been committed and that there was a case for John Banks to answer in a full trial.

So now we have another case and the police have decided there is insufficient evidence to take action against a young man who just happens to be the son of a serving police officer.

That decision not to take the complaint further was a correct decision? If the complainant had been the daughter of a serving police officer and the accused had all been the sons of gang hangers on, would the same decision have been made? I doubt that there is a single person in this country who believes that the same course of action would have eventuated.

sdav
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  #930091 9-Nov-2013 19:47

Well when you have a court system that will fine police for taking "frivolous" or cases that are deemed to lack evidence of course you will get situations where the police are nervous to proceed.

kingjj
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  #930093 9-Nov-2013 20:03
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freitasm: Of course evidence is required. I am not disputing that.

What I am doubtful is that evidence was actually sought.


// Personal Opinion

Cases involving sexual abuse are some of the most difficult to prosecute and some of the most deeply scrutinised. If the Police had brought about a prosecution and the group were found not guilty than the media would have lambasted the Police for defaming the 'good name' of the accused and dragging the victim through the harrowing process that is court, potentially re victimising them, when they knew a conviction was unlikely. It really is a case of damned if they do, damned if they don't. The Police must use the Auditor Generals guidelines to see if a case meets the evidential criteria to go before the courts, in this case they did not believe it did. If an independent review (such as by the IPCA) finds there was then I'm sure there will be apologies, heads rolling and changes to processes as would be expected.

The fact is we do not know what evidence was gained and we won't unless the case goes before an open court.

Lets wait for the IPCA and Police reports before we jump on the bandwagon based on less than stellar media reporting and one interview with a victim which was far from balanced (leading questions and selective editing being the issues).

Personal Opinion //

bfginger
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  #930141 9-Nov-2013 23:28
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John Key isn't head of state and can't personally arrest people.

The part the drinking culture plays in this is missing from the debate. For every person willing to use violence there are dozens who aren't but would still take advantage of someone who's drunk. These kinds of things would still happen if there wasn't alcohol but it'd be much rarer.

New Zealand has serious problems with alcoholism and attitudes that support it. Once girls reach 13 or 14 many if not most think diving into vodka RTDs and getting drunk is how to socialise and show they're grown up. To the average teen getting drunk is normal behaviour and anybody who says they shouldn't drink is a wimp. Girls in their early teens post pictures of themselves drunk to gain respect from their peers. They're only following the cues from their family, advertising and the cheap and easy availability of alcohol.

There was the case on TV a couple of years ago about the group of men engaging in similar activities with girls of that age. The parents got hostility and incompetence from many state authorities.

Look at the end of the article and remember that would have been in 2007
http://www.3news.co.nz/Roast-Busters-school-did-nothing---victims-mother/tabid/423/articleID/320618/Default.aspx
More disturbing was how what has been happening online and offline was common knowledge among teens in Auckland but hardly any of them told their parents. Teens have become too devious and distant from their parents.



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  #930158 10-Nov-2013 06:58
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This is not correct. Just because they were drunk it is still not justifiable or excusable. Regardless of state or consent, at that age it is rape.




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riahon
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  #930161 10-Nov-2013 07:38
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If police had at least taken them to court (and maybe lost) 2 years ago it would have at least put these scumbags on notice they were being watched, and maybe, just maybe they could have prevented more girls being raped.

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  #930162 10-Nov-2013 07:43
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Stuff says today "they fear for their lives now"

Oh, really?




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jeffnz
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  #930163 10-Nov-2013 07:47
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riahon: If police had at least taken them to court (and maybe lost) 2 years ago it would have at least put these scumbags on notice they were being watched, and maybe, just maybe they could have prevented more girls being raped.


big maybe's but you still need evidence to take people to court and we don't know what the evidence was as has been said a number of times.

Im sure there will be a lot happy to blame the police but lets wait till we have better information than what we do now before we start the lynch mobs up






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Klipspringer
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  #930179 10-Nov-2013 08:30
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freitasm: Stuff says today "they fear for their lives now"

Oh, really?


Good. Then they may find some comfort in prison. That's where these guys belong.

Glad to see NZ standing against injustice against these young girls.

k1wi
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  #930181 10-Nov-2013 08:47
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Let's all remember that this is an ongoing inquiry (regardless of your opinion of how that case is being handled) of an alleged crime that is particularly sensitive) and people need to be cautious about what they say (I am a little surprised this thread is even still open, but for better or worse I'm glad it is as free speech is good)

I think the people voicing comments thus far must have more information than is available in the media, because I for one wouldn't rely on what's come out in the media so far to reach a conclusion. My biggest fear is that facts are being drowned out by misinformed opinion, one way of the other.

Did the police fluff up up the investigation? We don't know until the IPCA report is released.

Are the boys guilty? Not until they have been brought before the courts and convicted. Boasting on FB is not an admission of guilt that would stand alone in court. It can only be used to support a case. A defense lawyer would, in my opinion, make a case brought off information currently available in the media difficult to stick.

Is rape bad? Absolutely, and it is a very sensitive situation for everyone involved and that makes it a particularly difficult investigation to persue - if only for the safety, health and well being of the victims themselves. I believe that rape leaves terrible wounds.

My hope? Is that any outcomes from the IPCA report improve the way in which police approach such investigations, because any improvement is a good thing, and that any crimes that have been committed can be proven to the level required by the court.

JimmyH
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  #930224 10-Nov-2013 11:40
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^^^ This

On the face of it, they have committed serious criminal offences. But we don't have all the facts.

However, I don't want a situation where based on a few newspaper headlines (which, after all, might not be completely accurate) grandstanding politicians take over the role of judge, jury and executioner.

The Police may (or may not!) have made a complete hash of things, and the facts may (or may not) be as they have been reported. The IPCA is an apolitical group of experienced experts, which will have full access to all the information the Police have and an ability to review everything. They need to be allowed to get on with their job.

There is enough external scrutiny on this now that I am fairly confident there will have to be a full and thorough job done, with not much chance to sweep any thing under the carpet - even if people wanted to do so, and there is no actual evidence that they do. If there is enough evidence, the perpetrators will then be arrested and stand trial. If convicted of what is currently alleged in the media, the perpetrators would deserve a serious penalty.

I agree with freitasm though. I wish the Police put more effort into crimes with actual victims (violent crimes and burglaries etc) - rather turning themselves into the roadside branch of Inland Revenue and chasing someone for fines for doing 104km in a 100 zone, when this isn't a safety hazard, can easily happen with a moments inattention, and is within the calibration error of speedometers.


bfginger
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  #930332 10-Nov-2013 18:16
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I did not say mistreating drunk girls is justifiable or excusable. There is a culture of wreckless drinking among teenagers which would put them in harms way even if these things did not exist. They get that culture from the actions of their parents' generation.

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