Geekzone: technology news, blogs, forums
Guest
Welcome Guest.
You haven't logged in yet. If you don't have an account you can register now.


View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic
1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12
270 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 37

Trusted

  Reply # 940353 25-Nov-2013 14:05
2 people support this post
Send private message

KiwiNZ:

A citizens initiated referendum becomes initiated when enough signatures are gained on a petition requesting same, both petitions and referendums are examples of effective democracy, others are elections, lobbying MP's etc etc. 

With regards to examples of parliamentary votes check Hansard.

The party I voted for at the last election I agreed with about 60% to 70% of their policies, a referendum allows for a vote on a particular matter that is of concern to the populous.


(Truncated quote, due to my love of double spaced sentences....)

So you voted for them based on agreeing with 60-70% of their policies, and then hoped to be able to change their views on the remaining 30-40%, should they successfully gain power, by way of citizens initiated referendum?

How often has that worked?

I am certain, that history will show that in a democracy, no party has ruled from the year dot, through to where we are now. The extreme left and extreme right policies are not sustainable. I still say that a balncaed approach is required, but debating from extreme left or right positions, with no middle ground does nobody any favours.

If you look at asset sales as your example, you only need look at the power generation company sell down vs. the Air new Zealand sell down. Similar concepts, but in my opinion, one has merits and the other not so many. Having said this, the National approach was "sell, sell" whilst the Labour Greens approach was "don't sell, don't sell", all parties being guilty of not being able to see the pro's and cons of each proposal, merely shouting from their particular end of the left-right spectrum.

And yes, I do see the irony in my debating the topic of debating with you....




Michael Skyrme - Instrumentation & Controls

13873 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 6631

Trusted
Subscriber

  Reply # 940359 25-Nov-2013 14:20
One person supports this post
Send private message

MikeSkyrme:
KiwiNZ:

A citizens initiated referendum becomes initiated when enough signatures are gained on a petition requesting same, both petitions and referendums are examples of effective democracy, others are elections, lobbying MP's etc etc. 

With regards to examples of parliamentary votes check Hansard.

The party I voted for at the last election I agreed with about 60% to 70% of their policies, a referendum allows for a vote on a particular matter that is of concern to the populous.


(Truncated quote, due to my love of double spaced sentences....)

So you voted for them based on agreeing with 60-70% of their policies, and then hoped to be able to change their views on the remaining 30-40%, should they successfully gain power, by way of citizens initiated referendum?

How often has that worked?

I am certain, that history will show that in a democracy, no party has ruled from the year dot, through to where we are now. The extreme left and extreme right policies are not sustainable. I still say that a balncaed approach is required, but debating from extreme left or right positions, with no middle ground does nobody any favours.

If you look at asset sales as your example, you only need look at the power generation company sell down vs. the Air new Zealand sell down. Similar concepts, but in my opinion, one has merits and the other not so many. Having said this, the National approach was "sell, sell" whilst the Labour Greens approach was "don't sell, don't sell", all parties being guilty of not being able to see the pro's and cons of each proposal, merely shouting from their particular end of the left-right spectrum.

And yes, I do see the irony in my debating the topic of debating with you....


1. I have not stated which party I voted for.
2. I have not stated that I support or oppose asset sales.
3. I believe in the democratic system we have of allowing citizen initiated Referendums
4. I believe that once a referendum had been initiated the sales processes should have been suspended to allow the democratic process to run it's course.
5. The Citizens initiated referendum act 1993 was passed by a National Government... irony. 




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

Using empathy takes no energy and can gain so much. Try it.

 

 


 
 
 
 


469 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 107


  Reply # 940362 25-Nov-2013 14:26
One person supports this post
Send private message

We've been a little off topic for a while now haven't we...

4513 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 875

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  Reply # 940365 25-Nov-2013 14:41
Send private message

k1wi: We've been a little off topic for a while now haven't we...


I disagree. I think we have great discussions in this post







176 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 11


  Reply # 940372 25-Nov-2013 14:49
Send private message

nakedmolerat:
k1wi: We've been a little off topic for a while now haven't we...


I disagree. I think we have great discussions in this post


Keeping in mind, of course, the fact that the topic of the post was the fact that I was able to look at my sealed vote, and those of my friends, and determine that all were to my satisfaction, and that my ability to do this is a problem.  (It's not a super power on my part).


270 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 37

Trusted

  Reply # 940389 25-Nov-2013 15:35
Send private message

KiwiNZ:
MikeSkyrme:
KiwiNZ:

A citizens initiated referendum becomes initiated when enough signatures are gained on a petition requesting same, both petitions and referendums are examples of effective democracy, others are elections, lobbying MP's etc etc. 

With regards to examples of parliamentary votes check Hansard.

The party I voted for at the last election I agreed with about 60% to 70% of their policies, a referendum allows for a vote on a particular matter that is of concern to the populous.


(Truncated quote, due to my love of double spaced sentences....)

So you voted for them based on agreeing with 60-70% of their policies, and then hoped to be able to change their views on the remaining 30-40%, should they successfully gain power, by way of citizens initiated referendum?

How often has that worked?

I am certain, that history will show that in a democracy, no party has ruled from the year dot, through to where we are now. The extreme left and extreme right policies are not sustainable. I still say that a balncaed approach is required, but debating from extreme left or right positions, with no middle ground does nobody any favours.

If you look at asset sales as your example, you only need look at the power generation company sell down vs. the Air new Zealand sell down. Similar concepts, but in my opinion, one has merits and the other not so many. Having said this, the National approach was "sell, sell" whilst the Labour Greens approach was "don't sell, don't sell", all parties being guilty of not being able to see the pro's and cons of each proposal, merely shouting from their particular end of the left-right spectrum.

And yes, I do see the irony in my debating the topic of debating with you....


1. I have not stated which party I voted for.
2. I have not stated that I support or oppose asset sales.
3. I believe in the democratic system we have of allowing citizen initiated Referendums
4. I believe that once a referendum had been initiated the sales processes should have been suspended to allow the democratic process to run it's course.
5. The Citizens initiated referendum act 1993 was passed by a National Government... irony. 


Ok, misunderstanding somewhere, because at no point did I say that you had voted for National or said that you support asset sales.

You also failed to respond to my question regarding successful CIR's. The answer to that is a resounding "it has not worked since the act was enacted".

In fact, since 1994, when the act was first called upon, there have been 4 instances only where there has been enough support for a CIR (not including the current asset sales CIR).

Of those four, which were held in 1995, 1999, 1999 and 2009, all gained overwhelming support of between 81.5% and 91.8%.

None of these referendums caused any of the governments in power to halt proceedings or change policy decisions. Basically, a single fingered salute to the public from both major parties in NZ politics.

My point: Have as many referendums as you desire, however, decisions will be made by the party in power, based on which way they lean, based on the fact that they have mandates to do as they have stated in their policy statements, prior to elections.




Michael Skyrme - Instrumentation & Controls

Minimalist
5525 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 435

Moderator
Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  Reply # 940406 25-Nov-2013 16:04
Send private message

jnawk:
nakedmolerat:
k1wi: We've been a little off topic for a while now haven't we...


I disagree. I think we have great discussions in this post


Keeping in mind, of course, the fact that the topic of the post was the fact that I was able to look at my sealed vote, and those of my friends, and determine that all were to my satisfaction, and that my ability to do this is a problem.  (It's not a super power on my part).



Do to the course this has taken and there not being a need for another thread I have amended the thread title.

13873 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 6631

Trusted
Subscriber

  Reply # 940407 25-Nov-2013 16:10
Send private message

MikeSkyrme:
KiwiNZ:
MikeSkyrme:
KiwiNZ:

A citizens initiated referendum becomes initiated when enough signatures are gained on a petition requesting same, both petitions and referendums are examples of effective democracy, others are elections, lobbying MP's etc etc. 

With regards to examples of parliamentary votes check Hansard.

The party I voted for at the last election I agreed with about 60% to 70% of their policies, a referendum allows for a vote on a particular matter that is of concern to the populous.


(Truncated quote, due to my love of double spaced sentences....)

So you voted for them based on agreeing with 60-70% of their policies, and then hoped to be able to change their views on the remaining 30-40%, should they successfully gain power, by way of citizens initiated referendum?

How often has that worked?

I am certain, that history will show that in a democracy, no party has ruled from the year dot, through to where we are now. The extreme left and extreme right policies are not sustainable. I still say that a balncaed approach is required, but debating from extreme left or right positions, with no middle ground does nobody any favours.

If you look at asset sales as your example, you only need look at the power generation company sell down vs. the Air new Zealand sell down. Similar concepts, but in my opinion, one has merits and the other not so many. Having said this, the National approach was "sell, sell" whilst the Labour Greens approach was "don't sell, don't sell", all parties being guilty of not being able to see the pro's and cons of each proposal, merely shouting from their particular end of the left-right spectrum.

And yes, I do see the irony in my debating the topic of debating with you....


1. I have not stated which party I voted for.
2. I have not stated that I support or oppose asset sales.
3. I believe in the democratic system we have of allowing citizen initiated Referendums
4. I believe that once a referendum had been initiated the sales processes should have been suspended to allow the democratic process to run it's course.
5. The Citizens initiated referendum act 1993 was passed by a National Government... irony. 


Ok, misunderstanding somewhere, because at no point did I say that you had voted for National or said that you support asset sales.

You also failed to respond to my question regarding successful CIR's. The answer to that is a resounding "it has not worked since the act was enacted".

In fact, since 1994, when the act was first called upon, there have been 4 instances only where there has been enough support for a CIR (not including the current asset sales CIR).

Of those four, which were held in 1995, 1999, 1999 and 2009, all gained overwhelming support of between 81.5% and 91.8%.

None of these referendums caused any of the governments in power to halt proceedings or change policy decisions. Basically, a single fingered salute to the public from both major parties in NZ politics.

My point: Have as many referendums as you desire, however, decisions will be made by the party in power, based on which way they lean, based on the fact that they have mandates to do as they have stated in their policy statements, prior to elections.


I believe that the referendums should be binding




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

Using empathy takes no energy and can gain so much. Try it.

 

 


3156 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1616


  Reply # 940450 25-Nov-2013 16:47
One person supports this post
Send private message

KiwiNZ:
MikeSkyrme:
KiwiNZ:
MikeSkyrme:
KiwiNZ:

A citizens initiated referendum becomes initiated when enough signatures are gained on a petition requesting same, both petitions and referendums are examples of effective democracy, others are elections, lobbying MP's etc etc. 

With regards to examples of parliamentary votes check Hansard.

The party I voted for at the last election I agreed with about 60% to 70% of their policies, a referendum allows for a vote on a particular matter that is of concern to the populous.


(Truncated quote, due to my love of double spaced sentences....)

So you voted for them based on agreeing with 60-70% of their policies, and then hoped to be able to change their views on the remaining 30-40%, should they successfully gain power, by way of citizens initiated referendum?

How often has that worked?

I am certain, that history will show that in a democracy, no party has ruled from the year dot, through to where we are now. The extreme left and extreme right policies are not sustainable. I still say that a balncaed approach is required, but debating from extreme left or right positions, with no middle ground does nobody any favours.

If you look at asset sales as your example, you only need look at the power generation company sell down vs. the Air new Zealand sell down. Similar concepts, but in my opinion, one has merits and the other not so many. Having said this, the National approach was "sell, sell" whilst the Labour Greens approach was "don't sell, don't sell", all parties being guilty of not being able to see the pro's and cons of each proposal, merely shouting from their particular end of the left-right spectrum.

And yes, I do see the irony in my debating the topic of debating with you....


1. I have not stated which party I voted for.
2. I have not stated that I support or oppose asset sales.
3. I believe in the democratic system we have of allowing citizen initiated Referendums
4. I believe that once a referendum had been initiated the sales processes should have been suspended to allow the democratic process to run it's course.
5. The Citizens initiated referendum act 1993 was passed by a National Government... irony. 


Ok, misunderstanding somewhere, because at no point did I say that you had voted for National or said that you support asset sales.

You also failed to respond to my question regarding successful CIR's. The answer to that is a resounding "it has not worked since the act was enacted".

In fact, since 1994, when the act was first called upon, there have been 4 instances only where there has been enough support for a CIR (not including the current asset sales CIR).

Of those four, which were held in 1995, 1999, 1999 and 2009, all gained overwhelming support of between 81.5% and 91.8%.

None of these referendums caused any of the governments in power to halt proceedings or change policy decisions. Basically, a single fingered salute to the public from both major parties in NZ politics.

My point: Have as many referendums as you desire, however, decisions will be made by the party in power, based on which way they lean, based on the fact that they have mandates to do as they have stated in their policy statements, prior to elections.


I believe that the referendums should be binding


So you want to leave NZ's future to a bunch of people who largely may:

     

  1. Not be qualified in the topic matter
  2. Have no experience or exposure to the topic matter
  3. Are irrationally swayed by public opinion, media images and messaging

Hmmm...interesting concept.   Isn't that like asking a 5 year old what they think of middle eastern politics?

Not saying I disagree totally, just depends on the topic.










Always be yourself, unless you can be Batman, then always be the Batman



270 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 37

Trusted

  Reply # 940471 25-Nov-2013 16:56
One person supports this post
Send private message

KiwiNZ:

I believe that the referendums should be binding


I have two responses to that...:

1. Awesome. Let's get rid of government completely and decide everything by referendum.

OR....

2. There is a binding referendum every few years... it is called a general election, whereby the general public gets to choose the people they believe will make the decisions that need to be made regarding the governing of the country.




Michael Skyrme - Instrumentation & Controls

13873 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 6631

Trusted
Subscriber

  Reply # 940476 25-Nov-2013 17:02
One person supports this post
Send private message

MikeSkyrme:
KiwiNZ:

I believe that the referendums should be binding


I have two responses to that...:

1. Awesome. Let's get rid of government completely and decide everything by referendum.

OR....

2. There is a binding referendum every few years... it is called a general election, whereby the general public gets to choose the people they believe will make the decisions that need to be made regarding the governing of the country.


I don't believe you fully comprehend democracy




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

Using empathy takes no energy and can gain so much. Try it.

 

 


13873 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 6631

Trusted
Subscriber

  Reply # 940487 25-Nov-2013 17:04
One person supports this post
Send private message

scuwp:
KiwiNZ:
MikeSkyrme:
KiwiNZ:
MikeSkyrme:
KiwiNZ:

A citizens initiated referendum becomes initiated when enough signatures are gained on a petition requesting same, both petitions and referendums are examples of effective democracy, others are elections, lobbying MP's etc etc. 

With regards to examples of parliamentary votes check Hansard.

The party I voted for at the last election I agreed with about 60% to 70% of their policies, a referendum allows for a vote on a particular matter that is of concern to the populous.


(Truncated quote, due to my love of double spaced sentences....)

So you voted for them based on agreeing with 60-70% of their policies, and then hoped to be able to change their views on the remaining 30-40%, should they successfully gain power, by way of citizens initiated referendum?

How often has that worked?

I am certain, that history will show that in a democracy, no party has ruled from the year dot, through to where we are now. The extreme left and extreme right policies are not sustainable. I still say that a balncaed approach is required, but debating from extreme left or right positions, with no middle ground does nobody any favours.

If you look at asset sales as your example, you only need look at the power generation company sell down vs. the Air new Zealand sell down. Similar concepts, but in my opinion, one has merits and the other not so many. Having said this, the National approach was "sell, sell" whilst the Labour Greens approach was "don't sell, don't sell", all parties being guilty of not being able to see the pro's and cons of each proposal, merely shouting from their particular end of the left-right spectrum.

And yes, I do see the irony in my debating the topic of debating with you....


1. I have not stated which party I voted for.
2. I have not stated that I support or oppose asset sales.
3. I believe in the democratic system we have of allowing citizen initiated Referendums
4. I believe that once a referendum had been initiated the sales processes should have been suspended to allow the democratic process to run it's course.
5. The Citizens initiated referendum act 1993 was passed by a National Government... irony. 


Ok, misunderstanding somewhere, because at no point did I say that you had voted for National or said that you support asset sales.

You also failed to respond to my question regarding successful CIR's. The answer to that is a resounding "it has not worked since the act was enacted".

In fact, since 1994, when the act was first called upon, there have been 4 instances only where there has been enough support for a CIR (not including the current asset sales CIR).

Of those four, which were held in 1995, 1999, 1999 and 2009, all gained overwhelming support of between 81.5% and 91.8%.

None of these referendums caused any of the governments in power to halt proceedings or change policy decisions. Basically, a single fingered salute to the public from both major parties in NZ politics.

My point: Have as many referendums as you desire, however, decisions will be made by the party in power, based on which way they lean, based on the fact that they have mandates to do as they have stated in their policy statements, prior to elections.


I believe that the referendums should be binding


So you want to leave NZ's future to a bunch of people who largely may:


  1. Not be qualified in the topic matter

  2. Have no experience or exposure to the topic matter

  3. Are irrationally swayed by public opinion, media images and messaging


Hmmm...interesting concept.   Isn't that like asking a 5 year old what they think of middle eastern politics?

Not saying I disagree totally, just depends on the topic.








The same could be said about the electoral process.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

Using empathy takes no energy and can gain so much. Try it.

 

 




176 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 11


  Reply # 940488 25-Nov-2013 17:04
One person supports this post
Send private message

scuwp:
KiwiNZ: 
I believe that the referendums should be binding


So you want to leave NZ's future to a bunch of people who largely may:

     

  1. Not be qualified in the topic matter
  2. Have no experience or exposure to the topic matter
  3. Are irrationally swayed by public opinion, media images and messaging

Hmmm...interesting concept.   Isn't that like asking a 5 year old what they think of middle eastern politics?

Not saying I disagree totally, just depends on the topic.




Way to misconstrue the point - CIRs need 10% support before they even happen.  The "bunch" of people you mention are quite a large "bunch".  Not as if just any old topic gets 10%+ of the voting population riled up enough to sign a petition about it.

Also, you seem to assume politicians are:

     

  1. Qualified in the topic matter
  2. Have experience or exposure to the topic matter
  3. Aren't irrationally swayed by public opinion, media images and messaging
Isn't that a little optimistic? 

Awesome
4841 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1097

Trusted
Subscriber

  Reply # 940528 25-Nov-2013 18:18
2 people support this post
Send private message

jnawk: Also, you seem to assume politicians are:

     

  1. Qualified in the topic matter
  2. Have experience or exposure to the topic matter
  3. Aren't irrationally swayed by public opinion, media images and messaging
Isn't that a little optimistic? 


Politicians have proven time and time again that they, by and large, do not meet the criteria above




Twitter: ajobbins


1828 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 215
Inactive user


  Reply # 940539 25-Nov-2013 18:22
Send private message

The fact that the national party cronies can just turn around and give us the middle finger and LOL whilst selling off something that doesn't belong to the Govt is astounding .... The referendum should have been binding

1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12
View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic



Twitter »

Follow us to receive Twitter updates when new discussions are posted in our forums:



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when news items and blogs are posted in our frontpage:



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when tech item prices are listed in our price comparison site:





News »

Orcon announces new always-on internet service for Small Business
Posted 18-Apr-2019 10:19


Spark Sport prices for Rugby World Cup 2019 announced
Posted 16-Apr-2019 07:58


2degrees launches new unlimited mobile plan
Posted 15-Apr-2019 09:35


Redgate brings together major industry speakers for SQL in the City Summits
Posted 13-Apr-2019 12:35


Exported honey authenticated on Blockchain
Posted 10-Apr-2019 21:19


HPE and Nutanix partner to deliver hybrid cloud as a service
Posted 10-Apr-2019 21:12


Southern Cross and ASN sign contract for Southern Cross NEXT
Posted 10-Apr-2019 21:09


Data security top New Zealand consumer priority when choosing a bank
Posted 10-Apr-2019 21:07


Samsung announces first 8K screens to hit New Zealand
Posted 10-Apr-2019 21:03


New cyber-protection and insurance product for businesses launched in APAC
Posted 10-Apr-2019 20:59


Kiwis ensure streaming is never interrupted by opting for uncapped broadband plans
Posted 7-Apr-2019 09:05


DHL Express introduces new MyDHL+ online portal to make shipping easier
Posted 7-Apr-2019 08:51


RackWare hybrid cloud platform removes barriers to enterprise cloud adoption
Posted 7-Apr-2019 08:50


Top partner named at MYOB High Achievers Awards
Posted 7-Apr-2019 08:48


Great ideas start in Gisborne with hackathon event back for another round
Posted 7-Apr-2019 08:42



Geekzone Live »

Try automatic live updates from Geekzone directly in your browser, without refreshing the page, with Geekzone Live now.


Support Geekzone »

Our community of supporters help make Geekzone possible. Click the button below to join them.

Support Geezone on PressPatron



Are you subscribed to our RSS feed? You can download the latest headlines and summaries from our stories directly to your computer or smartphone by using a feed reader.

Alternatively, you can receive a daily email with Geekzone updates.