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  # 955274 20-Dec-2013 08:43
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I still struggle with all this.....

To me it makes sense to have a government that is in full control. Thats what goverments are for. IMO a governments number 1 priority is to protect its citizens. This above anything else, and yes even privacy sometimes. The real question here is do we want to give the government the tools to do the job? Or do we want to limit the goverments ability to do what we expect them to do?

Nobody in NZ really grasps the concept of terrorism.

I really don't care about this "Five Eyes" intelligence-sharing. Live goes one, I have nothing to hide and in a way I can probably sleep a bit better..


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  # 955280 20-Dec-2013 08:49
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Linuxluver:
KiwiNZ: That is why I wrote the sensible open discussion from both camps would be a good start. And not the 1984 current cover up and the emotive hype up we are currently getting dished up. Both camps are guilty of FUD which turns the discussion into a farce.


The "emotive hype-up" is the natural response of the powerless to the prospect of the powerful doing wrong with both impunity and arrogant disregard for others. 

If that doesn't get you emotional....then you may need counselling. :)  


There are things I get "emotional" about and things I do not. For example I do not waste my emotion on that which I cannot influence or change. By saying that I do not necessarily mean the discussion at hand.

Having worked in Government I know that "open government" means more spin doctors are hired, the way to counter spin is by logical, factual and non emotional commentary. FUD from either camp switches off the intelligent, winds up the misinformed and turns the rest to watch Shortland street.




Mike
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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

Using empathy takes no energy and can gain so much. Try it.

 

 


 
 
 
 


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  # 955282 20-Dec-2013 08:51
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Klipspringer: I still struggle with all this.....

To me it makes sense to have a government that is in full control. Thats what goverments are for. IMO a governments number 1 priority is to protect its citizens. This above anything else, and yes even privacy sometimes. The real question here is do we want to give the government the tools to do the job? Or do we want to limit the goverments ability to do what we expect them to do?

Nobody in NZ really grasps the concept of terrorism.

I really don't care about this "Five Eyes" intelligence-sharing. Live goes one, I have nothing to hide and in a way I can probably sleep a bit better..



"Nobody in NZ really grasps the concept of terrorism."   really ? I can think on some very close and dear to me that do 




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

Using empathy takes no energy and can gain so much. Try it.

 

 


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  # 955283 20-Dec-2013 08:54
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Klipspringer: I still struggle with all this.....

To me it makes sense to have a government that is in full control. Thats what goverments are for. IMO a governments number 1 priority is to protect its citizens. This above anything else, and yes even privacy sometimes. The real question here is do we want to give the government the tools to do the job? Or do we want to limit the goverments ability to do what we expect them to do?

Nobody in NZ really grasps the concept of terrorism.

I really don't care about this "Five Eyes" intelligence-sharing. Live goes one, I have nothing to hide and in a way I can probably sleep a bit better..



Government agencies need the tools to do the job to protect and serve, however there must be checks, balances and oversight. However to use an example, it is impossible for NZ to provide effective checks, balances and oversight on the activity of the NSA in NZ and with NZ citizens. This is the 
major concern I have with this type of activity. Their actions may well be justified but with no oversight that cannot be determined.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

Using empathy takes no energy and can gain so much. Try it.

 

 


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  # 955307 20-Dec-2013 09:25
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KiwiNZ:
Government agencies need the tools to do the job to protect and serve, however there must be checks, balances and oversight. However to use an example, it is impossible for NZ to provide effective checks, balances and oversight on the activity of the NSA in NZ and with NZ citizens. This is the 
major concern I have with this type of activity. Their actions may well be justified but with no oversight that cannot be determined.


IMO government is the highest order of law. Nobody should be above them to keep them in check. Your suggestion of them being kept in check etc is in actual fact suggesting an even higher order (above government). This raises the question - why have a government?

Either you put your faith in the government or you don't.

We live in a democracy where the people put the government in power. Unfortunately people here don't really understand what they doing when they voting. When we vote, we should voting for a party in which we put our absolute trust and confidence. Not the flavor of the day.


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  # 955316 20-Dec-2013 09:37
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Klipspringer:  I have nothing to hide and in a way I can probably sleep a bit better..



Sure you do:

* Your religion
* Who you voted for in the last election
* How much you get paid
* What you like to do with your significant other in the bedroom
* That you sing in the shower

All those things are perfectly normal, everybody does them. But I'm sure you don't feel the need to share them with us. And like MF said, governments change. Tomorrow you might wake up and find that any of those things are now a crime. It HAS happened in the past. Trusting governments with anything they don't need is a bad idea.




iPad Pro 11" + iPhone XS + 2degrees 4tw!

 

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.


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  # 955320 20-Dec-2013 09:44
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Linuxluver:

This is true in Canada, the UK and Australia.....but NZ has the Green Party who WILL do things differently - and better - if given the numbers to make it so. Greens tend to be curious people who pay attention....which is why they are so often out of step with the less curious who prefer to ignore so much around them. 

It's becoming something of a rule that you can either let the Green Party do it today...or wait for a major party to do it in 20 years when it's become an emergency. Climate change is just one example. Public transport would be another.


Is this a joke?
The greens are probably the most backward thinking party from from the left-wing bunch. They will never get my vote.

 
 
 
 


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  # 955328 20-Dec-2013 09:49
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SaltyNZ:
Klipspringer:  I have nothing to hide and in a way I can probably sleep a bit better..



Sure you do:

* Your religion
* Who you voted for in the last election
* How much you get paid
* What you like to do with your significant other in the bedroom
* That you sing in the shower

All those things are perfectly normal, everybody does them. But I'm sure you don't feel the need to share them with us. And like MF said, governments change. Tomorrow you might wake up and find that any of those things are now a crime. It HAS happened in the past. Trusting governments with anything they don't need is a bad idea.


* Your religion: Christian (think goverment knows that already, I had to tick that in the last referendum)
* Who you voted for in the last election: National.
* How much you get paid: Its not a fixed amount. I'm a contractor. My current contract is paying me NZ$100 per hour including GST. (IRD has all the details already)
* What you like to do with your significant other in the bedroom: Thats no secret. I'm a normal heterosexual so "Oh Natural"
* That you sing in the shower: Yes sometimes.

 


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  # 955337 20-Dec-2013 10:02
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Klipspringer:
KiwiNZ:
Government agencies need the tools to do the job to protect and serve, however there must be checks, balances and oversight. However to use an example, it is impossible for NZ to provide effective checks, balances and oversight on the activity of the NSA in NZ and with NZ citizens. This is the 
major concern I have with this type of activity. Their actions may well be justified but with no oversight that cannot be determined.


IMO government is the highest order of law. Nobody should be above them to keep them in check. Your suggestion of them being kept in check etc is in actual fact suggesting an even higher order (above government). This raises the question - why have a government?

Either you put your faith in the government or you don't.

We live in a democracy where the people put the government in power. Unfortunately people here don't really understand what they doing when they voting. When we vote, we should voting for a party in which we put our absolute trust and confidence. Not the flavor of the day.



This is wrong on so many levels I just cannot be bothered addressing your points. Enjoy your version of utopia.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

Using empathy takes no energy and can gain so much. Try it.

 

 


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  # 955338 20-Dec-2013 10:04
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Klipspringer: IMO government is the highest order of law. Nobody should be above them to keep them in check. Your suggestion of them being kept in check etc is in actual fact suggesting an even higher order (above government). This raises the question - why have a government?

Either you put your faith in the government or you don't.


No, a government is not the highest order of law. That's why in a democratic nation there is separation of powers. One branch creates the laws (Parliament or Senate), another branch execute the laws (President, Prime Minister) and another branch enforce the laws (Judiciary).

There's no "government is the highest order of law" because no one entity or person should be above the law, which is for everyone.

A government above the law is a totalitarian government and we know very well where totalitarian governments led the world to during the 20th century, with millions being murdered in totalitarian states in Europe during the 20-40s, in South America during the 70s, in Asia during the 50-70s. 

A government without balances and checks is a recipe for civil rights disaster.





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  # 955352 20-Dec-2013 10:12
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Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if the NSA were already operating in NZ. Of late we seem to be getting rather close with the US and the fact we are already involved with the 5 eyes, is enough to cause concern, not to mention the TPP.


Trust in the Government? you have got to be kidding......




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  # 955354 20-Dec-2013 10:13
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Klipspringer:
KiwiNZ:
Government agencies need the tools to do the job to protect and serve, however there must be checks, balances and oversight. However to use an example, it is impossible for NZ to provide effective checks, balances and oversight on the activity of the NSA in NZ and with NZ citizens. This is the 
major concern I have with this type of activity. Their actions may well be justified but with no oversight that cannot be determined.


IMO government is the highest order of law. Nobody should be above them to keep them in check. Your suggestion of them being kept in check etc is in actual fact suggesting an even higher order (above government). This raises the question - why have a government?

Either you put your faith in the government or you don't.

We live in a democracy where the people put the government in power. Unfortunately people here don't really understand what they doing when they voting. When we vote, we should voting for a party in which we put our absolute trust and confidence. Not the flavor of the day.



I'm surprised that you could, in a couple of paragraphs, justify the right of government to hold absolute power, then condemn democracy as "people here don't really understand what they doing when they voting".

When people don't know what they're doing, and sometimes when they do know what they're doing when voting, the result can be less than benign, benevolent government.  Democracy is in many cases "mob rule", and if nothing is there to keep government in check, the consequences can be very ugly indeed.

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  # 955365 20-Dec-2013 10:27
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Klipspringer:
KiwiNZ:
Government agencies need the tools to do the job to protect and serve, however there must be checks, balances and oversight. However to use an example, it is impossible for NZ to provide effective checks, balances and oversight on the activity of the NSA in NZ and with NZ citizens. This is the 
major concern I have with this type of activity. Their actions may well be justified but with no oversight that cannot be determined.


IMO government is the highest order of law. Nobody should be above them to keep them in check. Your suggestion of them being kept in check etc is in actual fact suggesting an even higher order (above government). This raises the question - why have a government?

Either you put your faith in the government or you don't.

We live in a democracy where the people put the government in power. Unfortunately people here don't really understand what they doing when they voting. When we vote, we should voting for a party in which we put our absolute trust and confidence. Not the flavor of the day.



So your assertion that New Zealanders do not understand what we are doing when we vote based on evidence that you are able to present or is it based around a large portion of the population does not vote the way you vote?




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

Using empathy takes no energy and can gain so much. Try it.

 

 


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  # 955366 20-Dec-2013 10:29
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Klipspringer:
SaltyNZ:
Klipspringer:  I have nothing to hide and in a way I can probably sleep a bit better..



Sure you do:

* Your religion
* Who you voted for in the last election
* How much you get paid
* What you like to do with your significant other in the bedroom
* That you sing in the shower

All those things are perfectly normal, everybody does them. But I'm sure you don't feel the need to share them with us. And like MF said, governments change. Tomorrow you might wake up and find that any of those things are now a crime. It HAS happened in the past. Trusting governments with anything they don't need is a bad idea.


* Your religion: Christian (think goverment knows that already, I had to tick that in the last referendum)
* Who you voted for in the last election: National.
* How much you get paid: Its not a fixed amount. I'm a contractor. My current contract is paying me NZ$100 per hour including GST. (IRD has all the details already)
* What you like to do with your significant other in the bedroom: Thats no secret. I'm a normal heterosexual so "Oh Natural"
* That you sing in the shower: Yes sometimes.

 



That you can state that and others chose not to is what this is all about, the choice to reveal or the choice to conceal.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

Using empathy takes no energy and can gain so much. Try it.

 

 


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  # 955380 20-Dec-2013 10:55
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Fred99:
I'm surprised that you could, in a couple of paragraphs, justify the right of government to hold absolute power, then condemn democracy as "people here don't really understand what they doing when they voting".

When people don't know what they're doing, and sometimes when they do know what they're doing when voting, the result can be less than benign, benevolent government.  Democracy is in many cases "mob rule", and if nothing is there to keep government in check, the consequences can be very ugly indeed.


I'm not condemning democracy and agree with your point though on "mob rule". (Just look at Africa) Its an interesting topic this one and I have thought about many times. One just has to imagine what living in a 100% democracy would be like. Yay, lets get rid of taxes.

When we vote we should be a little bit more serious about it.

IMO I see a benevolent government as a much better system. But lets leave this one for another day.

KiwiNZ:

That you can state that and others chose not to is what this is all about, the choice to reveal or the choice to conceal.


But as I said the IRD already has most of that information anyway. I'm not really revealing anything. And believe me Im not going to sleep any worse tonight.

I'm curious though as to why people in NZ are always so secretive about the party they vote for and their salary?

We expect to know what our MP's earn, what gifts the mayor gets yet we want to remain secretive about our own salaries.

We want our members of state to live under a "Five Eyes" kind of lifestyle so that they can answer to us. We want to be able to know as much about their lives as possible. Lots of contradiction.



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