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374 posts

Ultimate Geek

# 139512 11-Feb-2014 17:29
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Hi this is an odd topic agreed, but Google has no results that helped so here goes.
In the past I have been using Edmonds Surebake which works perfectly well, but at about $10/250g is jolly expensive.
Recently I brought some Instant yeast 500g for a couple of dollars new. It is 'Instant Dried Yeast' and a teaspoon in warm water results in a hugely active bowl within a few minutes as you would expect, but it is a flop in the breadmaker with virtually no rise in the dough.

Can anyone suggest whats likely to be the issue here (apart from biting the bullet and buying more Edmonds).
Edmonds has got conditioning agents which are probably the secret weapon I dont know?
Im thinking of trying it again with 1/4 tspn citric acid but welcome anything more relevant.

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488 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 986919 13-Feb-2014 17:57
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Is the instant yeast missing the "bread improver" aspect that Edmonds has?

424 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 986922 13-Feb-2014 18:01
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I've found my breadmaker is very fussy about the quality of the flour and yeast.  If you want good results you have to buy good ingredients.  Cheap yeast my work for hand baking but not in the breadmaker.  Same goes for the flour.


488 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 986924 13-Feb-2014 18:04
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MackinNZ: I've found my breadmaker is very fussy about the quality of the flour and yeast.  If you want good results you have to buy good ingredients.  Cheap yeast my work for hand baking but not in the breadmaker.  Same goes for the flour.

I've had a few breadmakers now and they all seem to work best with their recommended brand.

1377 posts

Uber Geek

  # 986938 13-Feb-2014 18:38
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Have you tried not using a bread maker?

Yeast has a temperature that it needs to work at - at the upper range it will multiply too fast and the lower range too slow (both can be used to effect). I like to work in the middle of the range - about 24C +/-1C

I use dried yeast granules with nothing in it, when I activate the yeast, its just water, sugar and oil (basically everything but sodium) in lukewarm water - I use a thermometer. I only use a tsp of yeast (5g) and a ratio of salt at 10g per 500g flour. Don't let the salt come in contact with the yeast until it is activated so I put the salt in the dry ingredients and the yeast in the wet ingredients until it foams.

Software Engineer


374 posts

Ultimate Geek

  # 986939 13-Feb-2014 18:39
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Thanks for replies.
It seems I may have a handle on it. Various sources suggest:
1..Less yeast (prevents over proof)
2..Less Water (holds the rise together better)
3..Less processing time Edmonds keeps working, instant seems to work quickly, but slow down.
4..Less salt or use sea salt; iodized salt can upset the yeast.

I had been using the longest breadmaker mode 3:45h. I changed that to 2:45 on another bread mode and the bread had risen, but also dropped a tad but much better. Today I used Basic cycle 3:00h and a squeeze of lemon/citric, and a pinch of sea salt instead of iodized salt, and less yeast.
I think it will work better with same ingredients but 2:45 cycle; minimal amount of water is most important for retaining rise.
Kind regards,

809 posts

Ultimate Geek
Inactive user

  # 986949 13-Feb-2014 19:23
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This is why:

Yeast, wheat flour, emulsifiers (481, 472e), flour treatment agent (ascorbic acid), sugar, vegetable oil, enzymes

It's rubbish, whether you use a machine or do it by hand.
For dried yeast use this instead:


Edmonds Yeast Instant Dry 96g

1377 posts

Uber Geek

  # 986958 13-Feb-2014 19:47
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yes, just use pure yeast - not any additives.

Also, I don't think the amount of yeast isn't important. Over-proving is simply you let it prove too long. If you have yeast at a higher temperature you don't prove as long as if you have yeast at a lower temperature - from memory your bread maker has a fixed temperature and cycle which means you have to be more precise with your yeast

Also as I understand things salt works by charging the amino acids in the flour and helps the line up the gluten fibres to give the bread the structure. However if you mix salt with yeast too early it affects the yeasts ability to absorb water and slows it down too much so you wont get the fermentation happening.

Gluten is formed when the proteins glutenin and gliadin bind (roughly) and is affected by the amount of sugar or if it is shorted (adding fat).

Software Engineer



174 posts

Master Geek

  # 986966 13-Feb-2014 20:07

My bread maker has an instruction book with a nz section. In this section it says to use edmonds surebake because of the improvers in it.
It goes onto say if using another yeast without inprovers to add 50mg of vitamin c.

I have tried standard yeast without adding vit c and it didn't rise completely and was a bit stodgy.

14098 posts

Uber Geek


  # 986984 13-Feb-2014 20:45
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Yeast has a short shelf life use it quickly or throw away. Also the water temp is vital, too hot and it kills the yeast, too cold and it won't activate.

Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.


The is no planet B



374 posts

Ultimate Geek

  # 987200 14-Feb-2014 11:36
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>>Edmonds Yeast Instant Dry 96g
Except it works very well. But for $10 a small container, pricing is over the top especially when you know that yeast is a self-replicating product.

I think I may have nailed it now with amount of (less) water, yeast and include a lemon/tspn citric acid

1377 posts

Uber Geek

  # 987205 14-Feb-2014 12:01
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Vitamin C (Ascorbic Acid) is a food additive (E300). It causes the gluten to relax which I guess would make it appear to rise.

Being that I am on an additive free diet (I don't eat food that contains synthetic additives or added sugar), it would be one I would probably add from a natural source - but I have never used it.

heavy bread is more likely due to under-kneading or under-proving (likely the temperature is wrong, or it is not left long enough).

Software Engineer


681 posts

Ultimate Geek

  # 987215 14-Feb-2014 12:29
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Edmonds Yeast with the Red top - not the Yellow

2078 posts

Uber Geek


  # 987356 14-Feb-2014 16:06
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KiwiNZ: Yeast has a short shelf life use it quickly or throw away.

The freeze dried yeast will keep for a long time if you keep it in the fridge.

I buy 500g blocks of freeze dried yeast and even after two years in the fridge it still works just as well as when first opened.

2785 posts

Uber Geek

  # 987396 14-Feb-2014 17:06
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Secret tip: Go to the bakery section of the supermarket and buy yeast directly from them rather than from the boxes in the aisle. They use the good stuff generally.

New World sells direct, they might grumble, but it's in their system.

2967 posts

Uber Geek

  # 987406 14-Feb-2014 17:39
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Have you tried some different flour. I recall having some dodgy bread - didnt rise properly etc. Turned out the flour wasnt as fresh as it shouldvhave been. New bag - sorted...

The yeast with improvers did give a better product but plain yeast should work too.

I got diagnosed with coeliac disease several years ago so the quest these days is for a good gluten free recipe.

Nothing is impossible for the man who doesn't have to do it himself - A. H. Weiler

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