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  # 988531 16-Feb-2014 21:36
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This clearly about illegal import and use of prescription drugs as well as stupidity




Mike
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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

Using empathy takes no energy and can gain so much. Try it.

 

 


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  # 988535 16-Feb-2014 21:40
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Cogswell: It's not necessary, I do get enough sleep every night (which is around 7 hours), and so I don't think a doctor would prescribe it to me.

I'm just trying to get a better sleeping pattern, sleep longer and have a deeper sleep so my body can release more Growth Hormone and repair/recover more readily after weight lifting.

I'd like to sleep for about 9 to 10 hours a night, starting from like 11pm, instead of the 1am bedtime I have now.







 
 
 
 


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  # 988536 16-Feb-2014 21:41
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joker97: 

you cannot make cheap melatonin!


Bulk pharmaceutical grade melatonin (99%) seems to be priced at about $100/kg.
That's 5,000 tablets per US dollar (active content basis).



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  # 988558 16-Feb-2014 21:53
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nakedmolerat:
Beccara: Look i'm not going to go round for round with you, All drugs have an on-label use and criteria for said on-label prescription when approved by MedSafe/FDA/etc/etc. Zop's is short term use only (8 weeks or less) among other contraindications.


This is incorrect. Zopiclone is RECOMMENDED for short term use. Recommendation and what the medications are approved for is completely different.


Beccara: You said you'd only get a 3-month script if you were older than 55 and it was for short term use, This is factually incorrect simple as that. Under 55's have and do get 3 month scripts for it


Regular medications, anyone even 1 month old baby can have 3 months script. In this thread we are discussing about melatonin!



 MELATONIN IS AVAILABLE ON PRESCRIPTION ONLY

Melatonin 2mg Prolonged Release tablet (CIRCADIN®) was approved in New Zealand in 2011, as monotherapy for the short-term treatment of primary insomnia in patients who are aged 55 or over


 Requirements for unapproved indications

Melatonin 2mg tablets are currently registered in New Zealand for primary insomnia in those over 55 years

For other patient groups or conditions, the patient should be advised that it is an unapproved indication. Unbiased efficacy and safety information should be discussed with the patient, together with other treatment options, to be assured that it may offer benefit and not harm. If the use of melatonin is regarded ‘experimental’, signed consent must be obtained from the patient, as per The Code of Health and Disability Services Consumers’ Rights. Agree with the patient on how monitoring for safety and efficacy will be arranged. The unapproved use of a medicine would be considered to be experimental if there is limited documented evidence supporting its use.


Source: Waitemata DHB

edit: formatting


Your talking out a hole in your head, My partner has been on 3+ months of Melatonin  when trying to get off Zop and is well under 55. Your last point even says you can get it under 55, On-label is 55+ short term, Off label can be whatever the doctor and patient agree on given.

Op, Go and talk to your doctor, explain what you are after and why and see what they say, At the end of the day nobody on here is a Doctor (that have atleast come forward) and in order to get this item you'll need a prescription from a Doctor. Despite what others are saying in here good Doctors not only heal sickness but assist with niggles before they become problems. This isn't to say you'll get exactly what you want but you'll get advice and if needed medicine




Most problems are the result of previous solutions...

All comment's I make are my own personal opinion and do not in any way, shape or form reflect the views of current or former employers unless specifically stated 

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  # 988562 16-Feb-2014 21:59
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Cogswell: It's not necessary, I do get enough sleep every night (which is around 7 hours), and so I don't think a doctor would prescribe it to me.

I'm just trying to get a better sleeping pattern, sleep longer and have a deeper sleep so my body can release more Growth Hormone and repair/recover more readily after weight lifting.
I'd like to sleep for about 9 to 10 hours a night, starting from like 11pm, instead of the 1am bedtime I have now.


If a doctor will not prescribe it to you then why do you think what you are trying to do is good for you. Yes its advertised "on the net" for people for weight lifting for exactly what you have said but do you know 100% its good for you? There will be a good reason why its a restricted drug.

Have you talked to your gym/trainer/family/doctor about why you are thinking to take this. I am pretty sure everyone will say no.



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  # 988575 16-Feb-2014 22:38
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Beccara: Your talking out a hole in your head, My partner has been on 3+ months of Melatonin  when trying to get off Zop and is well under 55.

Your last point even says you can get it under 55, On-label is 55+ short term, Off label can be whatever the doctor and patient agree on given.


Not sure which hole you are talking about.

1. I never said under 55 cannot have melatonin prescribed to them. I said this medication is approved for 55 +, therefore I assume under 55 will not get melatonin at a funded price.

2. This is the first time you mention that your partner is on melatonin, trying to get off zopiclone. Are you saying that her doctor, I assume her GP prescribed melatonin to take her off Zopiclone? Do you get the medication from the pharmacy here or imported overseas?







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  # 988577 16-Feb-2014 22:45

This thread is reminding me that I need to do something about my bad sleep patterns. I struggle to get more than 6 hours sleep each night. But the main problem is that I never feel tired around bedtime. I can easily stay up to 2 am without beginning to feel tired. Yet often I can be tired during the day. Have previously had a short term prescription for triazolam. But that was very hit and miss as to it helping me to sleep.


Have just placed an order for some 5-HTP which can also supposedly help with sleep problems and is readily available.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-Hydroxytryptophan

http://www.punchsupplements.co.nz/go-healthy-5-htp


Also try ZMA as well - remembered that I had an unopened pack of Zinc Aspartate from Purebulk. And a big container of magnesium aspartate that I bought off trademe. Couldn’t justify paying for ZMA tablets since the raw ingredients are so cheap.


Time to mix up some homemade ZMA. Will report back tomorrow if it helped me to get to sleep tonight.

 
 
 
 


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  # 988592 16-Feb-2014 23:36
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Melatonin is pretty interesting (IMO) from a legal/ethical perspective.

Medsafe have rejected (indefinitely) an application by the maker of "Circadin" to have it reclassified from prescription only to restricted / OTC / pharmacist only.
The application included a statement by the maker that 5% of US citizens are taking melatonin supplement (2002).   That's 15 million people - quite a lot IMO. It's probably more now, as it''s being used as an additive in neutraceutical foods, which they probably shouldn't be able to "get away with" if it's an additive - as it lacks FDA GRAS status, but OTOH if it's a component of ie cherry juice, and carefully labelled, then there's probably little that FDA can do.
Tablets / doses are commonly higher than the 2mg Circaden tablets.
Anyway, if there was the likelihood of serious long term harm, it should have probably shown up by now.  Oh crap, now I can picture a doctor advertising cigarettes, a bottle of Bayer Heroin, and an executive from Ethyl Corp drinking petrol anti-knock additive.

The problem seems to be that it's "recommended use" involves therapeutic claims.  But it's a naturally synthesized compound produced in our bodies, which happens to be classified as a "hormone" - as opposed to say a "vitamin".  Now in the case of vitamins - making specific therapeutic claims would likely land the seller in very deep water with medsafe, despite the fact that we know that vitamin C prevents/cures scurvy etc - known diseases of deficiency  - that's not why people buy it - and not how it's sold. Some vitamins (A/D/E in particular) can be toxic.  For some of those vitamins, there's no real consensus what a "good" level should be (above the level to avoid diseases of deficiency).  Sods law would say that even if some method to determine the "ideal level" existed, then it would be different for every individual and practically impossible to determine.
Some are synthesized in our bodies, some aren't.  Over the counter medicines for which therapeutic claims are made and are not "naturally occurring in our bodies" are freely available in supermarkets, yet the margin of error between a correct therapeutic dose of paracetamol and a lethal dose actually isn't very high. Aspirin also - safe most of the time, but...  

IMO it's a bit of a mess, sometime seems ad-hoc, sometimes seems as if the medical fraternity like to protect their territory.



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  # 988601 17-Feb-2014 01:03
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KiwiNZ: This clearly about illegal import and use of prescription drugs as well as stupidity


It's a simple over-the-counter drug in America - it's not a dangerous drug nor does it have many bad side effects.

LennonNZ:
If a doctor will not prescribe it to you then why do you think what you are trying to do is good for you. Yes its advertised "on the net" for people for weight lifting for exactly what you have said but do you know 100% its good for you? There will be a good reason why its a restricted drug.

Have you talked to your gym/trainer/family/doctor about why you are thinking to take this. I am pretty sure everyone will say no.


Because I understand myself more than anyone else understands me.
For example, I've seen a couple of counsellors about my unresolved childhood problems, and none of them helped even after a few dozen sessions. Sometimes, you just have to do things yourself, and solve things yourself.

How will a doctor know it'll be right or not right for me? He doesn't know my sleeping patterns or how sleepy I get at certain parts of the day.
I live right, I eat right, I exercise regularly, I am self aware, I always try to fall asleep before midnight, and yet I always do one of the following:
Wake up at 8am (alarm) and go about my day, but then I feel really tired at 5pm and sleep for a few hours, and have a really late dinner.
Or I wake up at 11am (or whenever I feel like it) and then I won't be able to sleep til way past midnight. I decided to sleep til noon since it was Sunday, and now I can't sleep 

I do not see why it's a restricted drug here in New Zealand. It's not dangerous, overdosing won't kill you, and it hardly has any bad side effects. It's simply a natural hormone that your body produces anyway (which maybe I'm not producing enough of).

I lift weights with friends and don't have a personal trainer, I don't have a personal doctor, and I'm not on well speaking terms with my family. There's aren't many people I can talk to about this, and so I have to do my own research.

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  # 988606 17-Feb-2014 07:11
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Cogswell:
KiwiNZ: This clearly about illegal import and use of prescription drugs as well as stupidity


It's a simple over-the-counter drug in America - it's not a dangerous drug nor does it have many bad side effects.

LennonNZ:
If a doctor will not prescribe it to you then why do you think what you are trying to do is good for you. Yes its advertised "on the net" for people for weight lifting for exactly what you have said but do you know 100% its good for you? There will be a good reason why its a restricted drug.

Have you talked to your gym/trainer/family/doctor about why you are thinking to take this. I am pretty sure everyone will say no.


Because I understand myself more than anyone else understands me.
For example, I've seen a couple of counsellors about my unresolved childhood problems, and none of them helped even after a few dozen sessions. Sometimes, you just have to do things yourself, and solve things yourself.

How will a doctor know it'll be right or not right for me? He doesn't know my sleeping patterns or how sleepy I get at certain parts of the day.
I live right, I eat right, I exercise regularly, I am self aware, I always try to fall asleep before midnight, and yet I always do one of the following:
Wake up at 8am (alarm) and go about my day, but then I feel really tired at 5pm and sleep for a few hours, and have a really late dinner.
Or I wake up at 11am (or whenever I feel like it) and then I won't be able to sleep til way past midnight. I decided to sleep til noon since it was Sunday, and now I can't sleep 

I do not see why it's a restricted drug here in New Zealand. It's not dangerous, overdosing won't kill you, and it hardly has any bad side effects. It's simply a natural hormone that your body produces anyway (which maybe I'm not producing enough of).

I lift weights with friends and don't have a personal trainer, I don't have a personal doctor, and I'm not on well speaking terms with my family. There's aren't many people I can talk to about this, and so I have to do my own research.


So you know more than health professionals with 7 years training and advanced degrees. You are fully conversant with the drug affects on any preexisting conditions, both physical and mental, you are also fully conversant with all drug interactions including over the counter.

The fact you can buy it in the US means nothing here, it is prescription only therefore illegal for you to import it and use it with out a script. Self medication is stupidity.

This thread should be closed.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

Using empathy takes no energy and can gain so much. Try it.

 

 


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  # 988608 17-Feb-2014 07:25
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Fred99: Melatonin is pretty interesting (IMO) from a legal/ethical perspective.

Medsafe have rejected (indefinitely) an application by the maker of "Circadin" to have it reclassified from prescription only to restricted / OTC / pharmacist only.
The application included a statement by the maker that 5% of US citizens are taking melatonin supplement (2002).   That's 15 million people - quite a lot IMO. It's probably more now, as it''s being used as an additive in neutraceutical foods, which they probably shouldn't be able to "get away with" if it's an additive - as it lacks FDA GRAS status, but OTOH if it's a component of ie cherry juice, and carefully labelled, then there's probably little that FDA can do.
Tablets / doses are commonly higher than the 2mg Circaden tablets.
Anyway, if there was the likelihood of serious long term harm, it should have probably shown up by now.  Oh crap, now I can picture a doctor advertising cigarettes, a bottle of Bayer Heroin, and an executive from Ethyl Corp drinking petrol anti-knock additive.

The problem seems to be that it's "recommended use" involves therapeutic claims.  But it's a naturally synthesized compound produced in our bodies, which happens to be classified as a "hormone" - as opposed to say a "vitamin".  Now in the case of vitamins - making specific therapeutic claims would likely land the seller in very deep water with medsafe, despite the fact that we know that vitamin C prevents/cures scurvy etc - known diseases of deficiency  - that's not why people buy it - and not how it's sold. Some vitamins (A/D/E in particular) can be toxic.  For some of those vitamins, there's no real consensus what a "good" level should be (above the level to avoid diseases of deficiency).  Sods law would say that even if some method to determine the "ideal level" existed, then it would be different for every individual and practically impossible to determine.
Some are synthesized in our bodies, some aren't.  Over the counter medicines for which therapeutic claims are made and are not "naturally occurring in our bodies" are freely available in supermarkets, yet the margin of error between a correct therapeutic dose of paracetamol and a lethal dose actually isn't very high. Aspirin also - safe most of the time, but...  

IMO it's a bit of a mess, sometime seems ad-hoc, sometimes seems as if the medical fraternity like to protect their territory.


Yo how has that got to do with medical fraternity? This problem is the same as the Herceptin issue. the lawmakers are the ones that decide what is legal/illegal, what is funded/not funded, what is OTC/prescription! not docs!




Swype on iOS is detrimental to accurate typing. Apologies in advance.


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  # 988609 17-Feb-2014 07:28
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joker97:
Fred99: Melatonin is pretty interesting (IMO) from a legal/ethical perspective.

Medsafe have rejected (indefinitely) an application by the maker of "Circadin" to have it reclassified from prescription only to restricted / OTC / pharmacist only.
The application included a statement by the maker that 5% of US citizens are taking melatonin supplement (2002).   That's 15 million people - quite a lot IMO. It's probably more now, as it''s being used as an additive in neutraceutical foods, which they probably shouldn't be able to "get away with" if it's an additive - as it lacks FDA GRAS status, but OTOH if it's a component of ie cherry juice, and carefully labelled, then there's probably little that FDA can do.
Tablets / doses are commonly higher than the 2mg Circaden tablets.
Anyway, if there was the likelihood of serious long term harm, it should have probably shown up by now.  Oh crap, now I can picture a doctor advertising cigarettes, a bottle of Bayer Heroin, and an executive from Ethyl Corp drinking petrol anti-knock additive.

The problem seems to be that it's "recommended use" involves therapeutic claims.  But it's a naturally synthesized compound produced in our bodies, which happens to be classified as a "hormone" - as opposed to say a "vitamin".  Now in the case of vitamins - making specific therapeutic claims would likely land the seller in very deep water with medsafe, despite the fact that we know that vitamin C prevents/cures scurvy etc - known diseases of deficiency  - that's not why people buy it - and not how it's sold. Some vitamins (A/D/E in particular) can be toxic.  For some of those vitamins, there's no real consensus what a "good" level should be (above the level to avoid diseases of deficiency).  Sods law would say that even if some method to determine the "ideal level" existed, then it would be different for every individual and practically impossible to determine.
Some are synthesized in our bodies, some aren't.  Over the counter medicines for which therapeutic claims are made and are not "naturally occurring in our bodies" are freely available in supermarkets, yet the margin of error between a correct therapeutic dose of paracetamol and a lethal dose actually isn't very high. Aspirin also - safe most of the time, but...  

IMO it's a bit of a mess, sometime seems ad-hoc, sometimes seems as if the medical fraternity like to protect their territory.


Yo how has that got to do with medical fraternity? This problem is the same as the Herceptin issue. the lawmakers are the ones that decide what is legal/illegal, what is funded/not funded, what is OTC/prescription! not docs!


Who do you think advises the Ministry? .... Plumbers?




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

Using empathy takes no energy and can gain so much. Try it.

 

 


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  # 988611 17-Feb-2014 07:31
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Cogswell:
KiwiNZ: This clearly about illegal import and use of prescription drugs as well as stupidity


It's a simple over-the-counter drug in America - it's not a dangerous drug nor does it have many bad side effects.

LennonNZ:
If a doctor will not prescribe it to you then why do you think what you are trying to do is good for you. Yes its advertised "on the net" for people for weight lifting for exactly what you have said but do you know 100% its good for you? There will be a good reason why its a restricted drug.

Have you talked to your gym/trainer/family/doctor about why you are thinking to take this. I am pretty sure everyone will say no.


Because I understand myself more than anyone else understands me.
For example, I've seen a couple of counsellors about my unresolved childhood problems, and none of them helped even after a few dozen sessions. Sometimes, you just have to do things yourself, and solve things yourself.

How will a doctor know it'll be right or not right for me? He doesn't know my sleeping patterns or how sleepy I get at certain parts of the day.
I live right, I eat right, I exercise regularly, I am self aware, I always try to fall asleep before midnight, and yet I always do one of the following:
Wake up at 8am (alarm) and go about my day, but then I feel really tired at 5pm and sleep for a few hours, and have a really late dinner.
Or I wake up at 11am (or whenever I feel like it) and then I won't be able to sleep til way past midnight. I decided to sleep til noon since it was Sunday, and now I can't sleep 

I do not see why it's a restricted drug here in New Zealand. It's not dangerous, overdosing won't kill you, and it hardly has any bad side effects. It's simply a natural hormone that your body produces anyway (which maybe I'm not producing enough of).

I lift weights with friends and don't have a personal trainer, I don't have a personal doctor, and I'm not on well speaking terms with my family. There's aren't many people I can talk to about this, and so I have to do my own research.


as before: whether a party pill is legal or illegal or a natural hormone is OTC or prescription is decided by lawmakers (just like the fact that a coroner is a judge not a pathologist).

however just because it is a hormone does not mean it won't harm you. que steroids (a naturally occurring hormone) and death from heart failure (most infamous is flo-jo)




Swype on iOS is detrimental to accurate typing. Apologies in advance.


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  # 988619 17-Feb-2014 08:11
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joker97:
Fred99: Melatonin is pretty interesting (IMO) from a legal/ethical perspective.

Medsafe have rejected (indefinitely) an application by the maker of "Circadin" to have it reclassified from prescription only to restricted / OTC / pharmacist only.
The application included a statement by the maker that 5% of US citizens are taking melatonin supplement (2002).   That's 15 million people - quite a lot IMO. It's probably more now, as it''s being used as an additive in neutraceutical foods, which they probably shouldn't be able to "get away with" if it's an additive - as it lacks FDA GRAS status, but OTOH if it's a component of ie cherry juice, and carefully labelled, then there's probably little that FDA can do.
Tablets / doses are commonly higher than the 2mg Circaden tablets.
Anyway, if there was the likelihood of serious long term harm, it should have probably shown up by now.  Oh crap, now I can picture a doctor advertising cigarettes, a bottle of Bayer Heroin, and an executive from Ethyl Corp drinking petrol anti-knock additive.

The problem seems to be that it's "recommended use" involves therapeutic claims.  But it's a naturally synthesized compound produced in our bodies, which happens to be classified as a "hormone" - as opposed to say a "vitamin".  Now in the case of vitamins - making specific therapeutic claims would likely land the seller in very deep water with medsafe, despite the fact that we know that vitamin C prevents/cures scurvy etc - known diseases of deficiency  - that's not why people buy it - and not how it's sold. Some vitamins (A/D/E in particular) can be toxic.  For some of those vitamins, there's no real consensus what a "good" level should be (above the level to avoid diseases of deficiency).  Sods law would say that even if some method to determine the "ideal level" existed, then it would be different for every individual and practically impossible to determine.
Some are synthesized in our bodies, some aren't.  Over the counter medicines for which therapeutic claims are made and are not "naturally occurring in our bodies" are freely available in supermarkets, yet the margin of error between a correct therapeutic dose of paracetamol and a lethal dose actually isn't very high. Aspirin also - safe most of the time, but...  

IMO it's a bit of a mess, sometime seems ad-hoc, sometimes seems as if the medical fraternity like to protect their territory.


Yo how has that got to do with medical fraternity? This problem is the same as the Herceptin issue. the lawmakers are the ones that decide what is legal/illegal, what is funded/not funded, what is OTC/prescription! not docs!


What are you on about?

Have you heard or read about PHARMAC? We are lucky in NZ as PHARMAC does a great job to keep the drug prices low.





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  # 988622 17-Feb-2014 08:16
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joker97:
Fred99: Melatonin is pretty interesting (IMO) from a legal/ethical perspective.

Medsafe have rejected (indefinitely) an application by the maker of "Circadin" to have it reclassified from prescription only to restricted / OTC / pharmacist only.
The application included a statement by the maker that 5% of US citizens are taking melatonin supplement (2002).   That's 15 million people - quite a lot IMO. It's probably more now, as it''s being used as an additive in neutraceutical foods, which they probably shouldn't be able to "get away with" if it's an additive - as it lacks FDA GRAS status, but OTOH if it's a component of ie cherry juice, and carefully labelled, then there's probably little that FDA can do.
Tablets / doses are commonly higher than the 2mg Circaden tablets.
Anyway, if there was the likelihood of serious long term harm, it should have probably shown up by now.  Oh crap, now I can picture a doctor advertising cigarettes, a bottle of Bayer Heroin, and an executive from Ethyl Corp drinking petrol anti-knock additive.

The problem seems to be that it's "recommended use" involves therapeutic claims.  But it's a naturally synthesized compound produced in our bodies, which happens to be classified as a "hormone" - as opposed to say a "vitamin".  Now in the case of vitamins - making specific therapeutic claims would likely land the seller in very deep water with medsafe, despite the fact that we know that vitamin C prevents/cures scurvy etc - known diseases of deficiency  - that's not why people buy it - and not how it's sold. Some vitamins (A/D/E in particular) can be toxic.  For some of those vitamins, there's no real consensus what a "good" level should be (above the level to avoid diseases of deficiency).  Sods law would say that even if some method to determine the "ideal level" existed, then it would be different for every individual and practically impossible to determine.
Some are synthesized in our bodies, some aren't.  Over the counter medicines for which therapeutic claims are made and are not "naturally occurring in our bodies" are freely available in supermarkets, yet the margin of error between a correct therapeutic dose of paracetamol and a lethal dose actually isn't very high. Aspirin also - safe most of the time, but...  

IMO it's a bit of a mess, sometime seems ad-hoc, sometimes seems as if the medical fraternity like to protect their territory.


Yo how has that got to do with medical fraternity? This problem is the same as the Herceptin issue. the lawmakers are the ones that decide what is legal/illegal, what is funded/not funded, what is OTC/prescription! not docs!


No - it's not the same as the Herceptin issue at all - that's an issue of public funding (through Pharmac) of a very expensive drug (already approved through Medsafe).
Circadin (or other melatonin "medicine") is an issue of Medsafe allowing the (inexpensive) drug to be sold on a prescription only basis, but rejecting an application for it to be sold OTC by pharamcists.  Yet in this case the drug is freely available in the US (and elsewhere).  In NZ, Pharmac allow the drug to be prescribed - but it's a stretch of the imagination to say that it's "endorsed" by Pharmac - their data sheet for Circadin  - to quote them - gives it very a very lukewarm reception:
"Because of the role of melatonin in sleep and circadian rhythm regulation, and the age related decrease in endogenous melatonin production, melatonin may effectively improve sleep quality particularly in patients who are over 55 with primary insomnia."

So, if the clinical trail data for melatonin efficacy in treating the one disorder for which it's scheduled is so indeterminate - that's the best they can do, yet the also scant clinical trial data on long-term harm is equally scant - the possibility that allowing freer access to melatonin may be starting a ticking public-health time bomb - then they shouldn't (IMO) be allowing use of melatonin/Circadin at all!  It's not as if physicians don't have plenty of alternative medications available (though finding one without side-effects will be a problem)  Actually - for patients who aren't geriatric and with mild sleep disorders, IMO they (GPs) should first and foremost be looking at non-pharmacological treatments (cognitive modification / "mindfullness" etc). My skeptical nature leads me to believe that's not going to be the approach many GPs take.

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Posted 18-Jun-2019 17:35


Air New Zealand uses drones to inspect aircraft
Posted 17-Jun-2019 15:39


TCL Electronics launches its first-ever 8K TV
Posted 17-Jun-2019 15:18



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