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  # 995510 27-Feb-2014 14:16
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joker97:
Klipspringer: Braking is actually a skill. ABS is for those of us who can't be bothered about learning how to stop a car in the shortest possible time.

At the end of the day, all it does is prevent the wheels from locking up. If you know how to "pumpt the brakes" you can achieve the same stopping distance if you are in a car with ABS or not (providing all other factors are equal).



surely not. are you talking about lewis Hamilton under dry racing conditions or some random human when it's wet and dark and in a complete panic?


As I said, breaking is a skill that you can (our should I say use to) learn. But yes lewis Hamilton will probably stop a non ABS car quicker than your average person in the same car with ABS. LOL

clevedon:

The average human will never be as efficient as an ABS system.


Correct. Most average humans are useless drivers. Why try teach them the skill to apply breaks.

clevedon:ABS works at any speed, whenever a wheel locks the ABS system is activated.


That actually depends on the vehicle itself.

Older ABS systems were not as good either. If for instance, all 4 wheels were to slide at the same time ABS would not activate because it needs a speed source. Kinda hard getting a speed off the wheels when they locked up. I dont know how modern day vehicles handles this, but in my hay days I use to manage locking up all 4 wheels, most times for fun.


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  # 995512 27-Feb-2014 14:18
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joker97:in snow ... well ... if you want to go faster than available friction then you're out of luck. ABS will still work as there will still be some friction but, yes you're at a disadvantage, but as i said tough luck. perhaps the norwegians can explain how they do heavy braking with abs in the snow. (i expect the answer to be - you don't)


As a norwegian (having driven for 25 years on snow) I have to say that snow is not really a problem. You just have to drive to the conditions and be careful. Mostly the snow plows are out and take care of the snow, but when you have to drive in fairly deep snow its still not much worse than having to drive on roads with a fair amount of water on them.

The really horrible conditions is when you have under chilled rain, which both freezes up your windscreen while at the same time forming a nice ice layer on the road with some extra moisture on top. Even with nice studded tyres you can skid off the road in low speeds.

So I am much more wary of icey conditions than snow.

Oh, and ABS and ESP systems will shine in all these conditions. If you brake without them you turn your car into a sled..




 
 
 
 




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  # 995517 27-Feb-2014 14:22
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Klipspringer: 
If for instance, all 4 wheels were to slide at the same time ABS would not activate because it needs a speed source. Kinda hard getting a speed off the wheels when they locked up. I dont know how modern day vehicles handles this, but in my hay days I use to manage locking up all 4 wheels, most times for fun.


ABS is activated from wheel about to become not spinning (locking) - it has nothing to do with car's groundspeed and in no way linked to the speedometer as you suggest

you have no idea what you're talking about!




Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.


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  # 995518 27-Feb-2014 14:24
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joker97:
in snow ... well ... if you want to go faster than available friction then you're out of luck. ABS will still work as there will still be some friction but, yes you're at a disadvantage, but as i said tough luck. perhaps the norwegians can explain how they do heavy braking with abs in the snow. (i expect the answer to be - you don't)


If you lock up the wheels in snow you actually get a buildup of snow in front of the tyres, thereby increasing resistance.

If you don't lock up the wheels, you dont get the buildup. Therefore I can only conclude that you better off in a car without ABS, in snow that is.

ABS prevents wheel lockup which decreases the surface build-up and, therefore, increases the stopping distance on this type of surface. In Snow, you want wheel lockup. :-p



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  # 995519 27-Feb-2014 14:26
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Klipspringer: 
If you lock up the wheels in snow you actually get a buildup of snow in front of the tyres, thereby increasing resistance.

If you don't lock up the wheels, you dont get the buildup. Therefore I can only conclude that you better off in a car without ABS, in snow that is.

ABS prevents wheel lockup which decreases the surface build-up and, therefore, increases the stopping distance on this type of surface. In Snow, you want wheel lockup. :-p


Thats an interesting theory. Does not hold up to reality though.




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  # 995520 27-Feb-2014 14:28
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joker97:
Klipspringer: 
If for instance, all 4 wheels were to slide at the same time ABS would not activate because it needs a speed source. Kinda hard getting a speed off the wheels when they locked up. I dont know how modern day vehicles handles this, but in my hay days I use to manage locking up all 4 wheels, most times for fun.


ABS is activated from wheel about to become not spinning (locking) - it has nothing to do with car's groundspeed and in no way linked to the speedometer as you suggest

you have no idea what you're talking about!


If all 4 wheels are locked up you have no speed. hence no ABS....

Its the same as all 4 sensors not working. Take them out and see what happens.

Are you trying to not understand?

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  # 995522 27-Feb-2014 14:30
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Klipspringer: If all 4 wheels are locked up you have no speed. hence no ABS....


I have driven cars without ABS and have that happen, both on ice and on snow. Most definitely had speed.... 




 
 
 
 


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  # 995528 27-Feb-2014 14:36
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jarledb:
Klipspringer: If all 4 wheels are locked up you have no speed. hence no ABS....


I have driven cars without ABS and have that happen, both on ice and on snow. Most definitely had speed.... 


hehe thats where the braking skill comes into play ...

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  # 995529 27-Feb-2014 14:38
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Klipspringer: If all 4 wheels are locked up you have no speed. hence no ABS....

Its the same as all 4 sensors not working. Take them out and see what happens.

Are you trying to not understand?


Wrong, if any wheel locks under braking that wheel sensor signals the ABS computer which in turn signals the ABS pump and activates the system. It could be on one wheel or four - it does not matter.

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  # 995531 27-Feb-2014 14:43
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Klipspringer:

As I said, breaking is a skill that you can (our should I say use to) learn. But yes lewis Hamilton will probably stop a non ABS car quicker than your average person in the same car with ABS. LOL


This is not necessarily true. 

ABS can apply differing braking resistance to each wheel, something which you cannot do with non-abs brakes. 

So where the wheels are on differing surface types ABS will win. 



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  # 995538 27-Feb-2014 14:43
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Klipspringer:
hehe thats where the braking skill comes into play ...


Braking under those conditions without ABS you will want to pump brake, which means you will have all wheels locked from time to time.




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  # 995541 27-Feb-2014 14:45
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clevedon:
Klipspringer: If all 4 wheels are locked up you have no speed. hence no ABS....

Its the same as all 4 sensors not working. Take them out and see what happens.

Are you trying to not understand?


Wrong, if any wheel locks under braking that wheel sensor signals the ABS computer which in turn signals the ABS pump and activates the system. It could be on one wheel or four - it does not matter.


Actually Klipspringer is correct, if all four wheels lock up at the same time the computer only knows that you are "stopped", not that the wheels are slipping.  It will not activate the pump.

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  # 995548 27-Feb-2014 15:06
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Unless you're on sheet ice it's extremely unlikely you would lock up all 4 at the same time.

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  # 995549 27-Feb-2014 15:07
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clevedon:
Klipspringer: If all 4 wheels are locked up you have no speed. hence no ABS....

Its the same as all 4 sensors not working. Take them out and see what happens.

Are you trying to not understand?


Wrong, if any wheel locks under braking that wheel sensor signals the ABS computer which in turn signals the ABS pump and activates the system. It could be on one wheel or four - it does not matter.


4 wheels at the same time is a totally different scenario.

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  # 995553 27-Feb-2014 15:10
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An interesting article from the Transport Canada website where they drive to these types of conditions much more than we do

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/motorvehiclesafety/tp-tp13082-abs2_e-215.htm



Is the stopping distance shorter with ABS?

No!
From early commercials, it may have looked like you could stop on a dime. That instantaneous stop is not realistic. When braking on dry or wet roads your stopping distance will be about the same as with conventional brakes. You should allow for a longer stopping distance with ABS than for conventional brakes when driving on gravel, slush, and snow. This is because the rotating tire will stay on top of this low traction road surface covering, and effectively "float" on this boundary layer. A non ABS braked vehicle can lock its tires and create a snow plow effect in front of the tires which helps slow the vehicle. These locked tires can often find more traction below this boundary layer.




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