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  # 996608 28-Feb-2014 19:27
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Aka mutually exclusive.

I wish I could draw a meme pie diagram here :)




Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.


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  # 996616 28-Feb-2014 19:37
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freitasm:
Klipspringer:
freitasm:  You can be an atheist and believe there's life in other planets. 

On the other hand, I know a lot of religious people who says life in other planets is impossible because God created man on Earth and that's it, since there's nothing else in the book saying anything about other planets.



Really? care to explain?

If you believe there could be life on other planets, life that maybe formed long before our time, you treading very close to religion. Maybe this life is more advanced than us? Maybe they created us? Or we are Gods ourselves who will one day create our own planet? 

Any atheist who believes in possible alien life is contradicting themselves? surely.




I think you are grasping here. Believing in life outside Earth does not contradict atheism and at the same time is in now way confirmation of a God. 





What is a God?

 
 
 
 


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  # 996619 28-Feb-2014 19:40
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freitasm: Beautiful discussion folks, well done for holding this far without calling people names.

While discussing the origins is a very important thing, the question from the OP remains open and no answers to that in the last six or so pages: "Is there life elsewhere in the Universe?"

While determining HOW life came to be it is still not the topic. So back on topic would be great.




Ok - Fred99 is an abject moron trying to force his quasi-religious views on everybody else (I hope we can call ourselves names?)

In the absence of observational evidence that there is life elsewhere in the universe, discussion about how life happened to appear here (thus could arise elsewhere) is on topic IMO.
If the alternative is to surrender to the argument that lack of evidence is in itself evidence that life doesn't exist elsewhere, then there's not a hell of a lot to talk about really, just difference in opinion.

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  # 996629 28-Feb-2014 19:53
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freitasm: I am not getting into "what's a god". I do not want to discuss religion.


No worries. That's my bad. Let's keep to topic like you suggested.



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  # 996630 28-Feb-2014 19:55
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Fred99:
freitasm: Beautiful discussion folks, well done for holding this far without calling people names.

While discussing the origins is a very important thing, the question from the OP remains open and no answers to that in the last six or so pages: "Is there life elsewhere in the Universe?"

While determining HOW life came to be it is still not the topic. So back on topic would be great.




Ok - Fred99 is an abject moron trying to force his quasi-religious views on everybody else (I hope we can call ourselves names?)

In the absence of observational evidence that there is life elsewhere in the universe, discussion about how life happened to appear here (thus could arise elsewhere) is on topic IMO.
If the alternative is to surrender to the argument that lack of evidence is in itself evidence that life doesn't exist elsewhere, then there's not a hell of a lot to talk about really, just difference in opinion.


I do agree. HOW is related, as long as we don't go off too far on a tangent, and relate what is discussed about HOW, and how that relates to the IF. 

Many have acknowledged that due to the huge numbers of stars and planets, that it is yes, there is life somewhere. If the HOW is discussed, that can potentially lead to, no, or yes, and if yes, is it only bacteria, or can it be complex organisms, and can that evolve to plants and animals?

I am surprised they have not found evidence on Mars, as Mars did supposedly have water, and a core, although the core stopped rotating, atmosphere went gone burger and the planet died. If they took samples of the permanent ice, wow, that may find bacteria. If it did, that would really imply that life in at least cell form can exist many many locations in the Universe.

Water is very common in our solar system, particularly in some moons of Saturn and Jupiter. Thats compelling 

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  # 996680 28-Feb-2014 21:02
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ubergeeknz:  If particles are demonstrably increasing their distance from an epicentre, what else would you call it?


A small point, but, do not think of "the big bang" as being in any place, it's not an explosion.  THere's no epicenter, it happened "everywhere", in other words there is no such thing as the "center of the universe", just as there is no "edge" to look towards, there just is the universe.  

The universe is expanding almost certainly, but it's not expanding "outward" from some center, it's just expanding.   We observe EVERYTHING moving away from EVERYTHING else*, in all directions.  No matter what point you are in the universe, everything is moving away from you, contrarily if there was a center, some things would be moving "with" you, that's not what we observe, we observe everything moving away. It's not throwing a ball, it's making the ball bigger.

And to address some other posts by other members;

As for "before the big bang", or what "caused" it... when time and energy is compressed to a singularity "cause and effect" go out the window, in fact even now, the forwards linear progression of cause and effect is not entirely a certainty - that is to say, it could be that the cause does not always come before the effect, when we get down to quantum physics; so perhaps the big bang was caused BY it's effect.  

As to the original question... yes, statistically speaking, I would be very surprised if there was not life elsewhere in the universe.  The universe is a very big place, to think that we are so special, is quite arrogant.  All the time now new planets are being discovered.

From basic elements to organic life forms is not a big leap, just add enough energy and time, two things that our universe has plenty of.

* Edit to add for clarity: Everything that is not bound together by other (stronger) forces that is, eg the atoms making you do not expand away from each other, because you are very much bound together :-)




---
James Sleeman
I sell lots of stuff for electronic enthusiasts...


 
 
 
 


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  # 996686 28-Feb-2014 21:09
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I only have 1 problem with time, and that is entropy. I've never seen anything get better if left alone. so from an rna virus to a thing with brains (i'm a physiologist by trade - the way one organ works is more than any super computer can imagine - it's perfect, not like a Ferrari that catches fire, the heart does not miss a beat) ... not sure ... you leave 2 guys alone they kill each other.

anyway ... who knows maybe it's possible a virus can rule the world.




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  # 996706 28-Feb-2014 22:02
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sleemanj:
ubergeeknz:  If particles are demonstrably increasing their distance from an epicentre, what else would you call it?


A small point, but, do not think of "the big bang" as being in any place, it's not an explosion.  THere's no epicenter, it happened "everywhere", in other words there is no such thing as the "center of the universe", just as there is no "edge" to look towards, there just is the universe.  

The universe is expanding almost certainly, but it's not expanding "outward" from some center, it's just expanding.   We observe EVERYTHING moving away from EVERYTHING else*, in all directions.  No matter what point you are in the universe, everything is moving away from you, contrarily if there was a center, some things would be moving "with" you, that's not what we observe, we observe everything moving away. It's not throwing a ball, it's making the ball bigger.

And to address some other posts by other members;

As for "before the big bang", or what "caused" it... when time and energy is compressed to a singularity "cause and effect" go out the window, in fact even now, the forwards linear progression of cause and effect is not entirely a certainty - that is to say, it could be that the cause does not always come before the effect, when we get down to quantum physics; so perhaps the big bang was caused BY it's effect.  

As to the original question... yes, statistically speaking, I would be very surprised if there was not life elsewhere in the universe.  The universe is a very big place, to think that we are so special, is quite arrogant.  All the time now new planets are being discovered.

From basic elements to organic life forms is not a big leap, just add enough energy and time, two things that our universe has plenty of.

* Edit to add for clarity: Everything that is not bound together by other (stronger) forces that is, eg the atoms making you do not expand away from each other, because you are very much bound together :-)


Nice post James. Your last line sums it up for me. (From basic elements...)

The big bang, universe is everywhere, is there an edge of the expanding universe, are difficult concepts. From what I have seen over the years, is that there was nothing, then there was everything. Or the big bang was an explosion of everything. Difficult to get your head around that, as is what happened 2 hours before the big bang, where was everything in this huge space (pun not intended) before the big bang. Was there nothing?? Time. Did that not exist?? 

The more we discuss, the more questions it all raises

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  # 996707 28-Feb-2014 22:12
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well who knows maybe laws of physics changed in the past. they say there is a big bang because everything is moving away, at some time they must be at one singular point hence the big bang ... well ... what if ... it ain't that simple - it sounds way to simple for me esp string theorists are postulating 10 dimensions (6 more than we can comprehend)




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  # 996709 28-Feb-2014 22:16
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joker97: well who knows maybe laws of physics changed in the past. they say there is a big bang because everything is moving away, at some time they must be at one singular point hence the big bang ... well ... what if ... it ain't that simple - it sounds way to simple for me esp string theorists are postulating 10 dimensions (6 more than we can comprehend)


I'd rather believe in multiple dimensions than the theory that every atom in the universe came from one single point 13.7 billion years ago.

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  # 996915 1-Mar-2014 10:39
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Is there life elsewhere in the universe? Comparing what we know now with what we knew at the beginning of the space program - the answer is much more likely yes. We have now observed many components of the processes which created life on Earth operating in other systems.

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# 996917 1-Mar-2014 10:45
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Klipspringer:
freitasm:  You can be an atheist and believe there's life in other planets. 

On the other hand, I know a lot of religious people who says life in other planets is impossible because God created man on Earth and that's it, since there's nothing else in the book saying anything about other planets.



Really? care to explain?

If you believe there could be life on other planets, life that maybe formed long before our time, you treading very close to religion. Maybe this life is more advanced than us? Maybe they created us? Or we are Gods ourselves who will one day create our own planet? 

Any atheist who believes in possible alien life is contradicting themselves? surely.

Miles off topic but atheism is a rejection of the belief in the existence of deities, as opposed to theism, not a rejection of the belief in the existence of life.

gzt

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  # 996924 1-Mar-2014 10:54
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I think we did that one already. Let's not do it all over again.

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  # 996926 1-Mar-2014 11:00
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I think it's exceptionally arrogant to think there is no life anywhere else in the universe. Intelligence, and levels thereof is moot as the OP's question merely asks about life, not intelligence.

Harking back to James' comments, a few posts above, the big hole in what you're saying is stating that everything is moving away from everything else (in relation to whole galaxies themselves) as this is demonstrably incorrect. Search "galaxy collision".

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