Article on Stuff opens a can of religious and secular worms!

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1168 posts

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#1009810 20-Mar-2014 13:01

jonathan18:
My point is, though, that CE (where questioning is not part of the mix!) for children of a young age is even less appropriate than for older kids

Your six year old might be confused today but they are six. As they grow old they will learn to understand that not everybody agrees all the time and this isn't the end of the world. A pretty good lession is you ask me.

I see your point and I think I agree with it.

My thing is that if questioning isn't part of the mix then it isn't education, it's indoctrination. Therefore, how old they are isn't really a major issue.

To articulate what I think your point is another way:

An older child will have a greater facility to withstand indoctrination than a younger child because the older child will have a greater store of experiences to draw from to come to their own conclusions. Therefore, younger children should not be exposed to indoctrination but for older ones it might not be so bad.

If you put it that way ...

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jonathan18

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#1009833 20-Mar-2014 13:17

crackrdbycracku:
To articulate what I think your point is another way:

An older child will have a greater facility to withstand indoctrination than a younger child because the older child will have a greater store of experiences to draw from to come to their own conclusions. Therefore, younger children should not be exposed to indoctrination but for older ones it might not be so bad.

If you put it that way ...

Yep, pretty much; that said, as I articulated early on in this thread, I would much prefer that CE wasn't part of the school day using that dodgy Education Act exemption, and if offered at all was an opt-in (not an opt-out default) and happened outside of school hours. But, if schools do insist on having it, it would be preferable to limit the classes to older kids, given the "damage" of indoctrination is likely to be less considering older kids are more sceptical.

And I agree - I'm sure my kids will all the better off for needing to reconcile different viewpoints!

Jaxson

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#1009850 20-Mar-2014 13:35

Sidestep:

Teaching Ethics, such as "values" and "morals" unless done cleverly, is going to leave a lot of primary school kids glassy eyed and fidgeting.
Especially the kids who, through parent inattention, and bad luck, barely have a grasp of right and wrong.
Telling them the Spirit in the Sky doesn't want them to do bad things is easier.

He knows if you've been bad or good, so be good for goodness sake...

crackrdbycracku

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#1009858 20-Mar-2014 13:49

Jaxson:
Sidestep:

Teaching Ethics, such as "values" and "morals" unless done cleverly, is going to leave a lot of primary school kids glassy eyed and fidgeting.
Especially the kids who, through parent inattention, and bad luck, barely have a grasp of right and wrong.
Telling them the Spirit in the Sky doesn't want them to do bad things is easier.

He knows if you've been bad or good, so be good for goodness sake...

The important thing with the Myth of the Metals is to be the one telling the story, not the one the story is told to.

Didn't anybody tell you I was a hacker?

Klipspringer

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#1009865 20-Mar-2014 14:01

testha:

Christianity is not the big moral authority it claims to be. People living in a none christian society also developed good morals and values. It is about being human, not just about being part of a certain religion.

Define "good morals"

At the end of the day what is good and what is bad? Is it the law that sets it? Are we bad if we break the law? Or are we good if we break the law and fight for freedom? Its morals in the first place that determine good from bad. Your good may be my bad, and my bad may be your good.

Human nature leans towards the good, no matter your religion, or lack thereof. Its inside DNA. Unproven scientifically of course. But we all want to be good. The question though is what defines good? Religion? your definition of doing good? My definition? A religious definition? The law of the country? What?

There is no moral authority. Christianities biggest moral is to love your neighbor like you love yourself. Obeying that simple rule is good. Its not suppressing, and its not creating some sort of moral authority over anyone else.

Sidestep

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#1009876 20-Mar-2014 14:15

crackrdbycracku:
Jaxson:
Sidestep:

Teaching Ethics, such as "values" and "morals" unless done cleverly, is going to leave a lot of primary school kids glassy eyed and fidgeting.
Especially the kids who, through parent inattention, and bad luck, barely have a grasp of right and wrong.
Telling them the Spirit in the Sky doesn't want them to do bad things is easier.

He knows if you've been bad or good, so be good for goodness sake...

The important thing with the Myth of the Metals is to be the one telling the story, not the one the story is told to.

The important thing is to know it's a story;)

crackrdbycracku

1168 posts

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#1009879 20-Mar-2014 14:18

Sidestep:
crackrdbycracku:
Jaxson:
Sidestep:

Teaching Ethics, such as "values" and "morals" unless done cleverly, is going to leave a lot of primary school kids glassy eyed and fidgeting.
Especially the kids who, through parent inattention, and bad luck, barely have a grasp of right and wrong.
Telling them the Spirit in the Sky doesn't want them to do bad things is easier.

He knows if you've been bad or good, so be good for goodness sake...

The important thing with the Myth of the Metals is to be the one telling the story, not the one the story is told to.

The important thing is to know it's a story;)

Yes, You need to know it's a story but if They think it's a story then they might not do as they are told.

Didn't anybody tell you I was a hacker?

Sidestep

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#1009880 20-Mar-2014 14:22

Klipspringer:
testha:

Christianity is not the big moral authority it claims to be. People living in a none christian society also developed good morals and values. It is about being human, not just about being part of a certain religion.

Define "good morals"

At the end of the day what is good and what is bad? Is it the law that sets it? Are we bad if we break the law? Or are we good if we break the law and fight for freedom? Its morals in the first place that determine good from bad. Your good may be my bad, and my bad may be your good.

Human nature leans towards the good, no matter your religion, or lack thereof. Its inside DNA. Unproven scientifically of course. But we all want to be good. The question though is what defines good? Religion? your definition of doing good? My definition? A religious definition? The law of the country? What?

There is no moral authority. Christianities biggest moral is to love your neighbor like you love yourself. Obeying that simple rule is good. Its not suppressing, and its not creating some sort of moral authority over anyone else.

Well there's been a bit of debate for a fair while about what human nature leans to.. much of it predating Christianity.

MikeB4

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#1009885 20-Mar-2014 14:28

I think Articles 13 and 15 of the Bill of Rights Act 1990 sums it up

"13 Freedom of thought, conscience, and religion
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience, religion, and belief, including the right to adopt and to hold opinions without interference.

15 Manifestation of religion and belief
Every person has the right to manifest that person's religion or belief in worship, observance, practice, or teaching, either individually or in community with others, and either in public or in private."

People are free to hold or not to hold religious belief, so being compelled to hold a believe is contrary to that act be it for or against relies belief.

Sidestep

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#1009886 20-Mar-2014 14:28

crackrdbycracku:
Sidestep:
crackrdbycracku:
Jaxson:
Sidestep:

Teaching Ethics, such as "values" and "morals" unless done cleverly, is going to leave a lot of primary school kids glassy eyed and fidgeting.
Especially the kids who, through parent inattention, and bad luck, barely have a grasp of right and wrong.
Telling them the Spirit in the Sky doesn't want them to do bad things is easier.

He knows if you've been bad or good, so be good for goodness sake...

The important thing with the Myth of the Metals is to be the one telling the story, not the one the story is told to.

The important thing is to know it's a story;)

Yes, You need to know it's a story but if They think it's a story then they might not do as they are told.

I do enjoy a Good Yarn.. easier to just all agree to go with the flow rather than swim upstream

Klipspringer

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#1009892 20-Mar-2014 14:36

Sidestep:

Well there's been a bit of debate for a fair while about what human nature leans to.. much of it predating Christianity.

It leans towards doing good. Human nature cannot lean towards evil because actually there really is no such thing as evil. Its good that creates evil. Ie people do evil bad things, because they want something thats good. Evil is only here because we have good morals. Each person that commits even the worst unimaginable crimes, do so for the good of themselves.

I cant think of anything evil which does not have something good as its motivator. Hence human nature always leans to doing good, or achieving something good, even if its self centered.

Sidestep

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#1009896 20-Mar-2014 14:43

Klipspringer:
Sidestep:

Well there's been a bit of debate for a fair while about what human nature leans to.. much of it predating Christianity.

It leans towards doing good. Human nature cannot lean towards evil because actually there really is no such thing as evil. Its good that creates evil. Ie people do evil bad things, because they want something thats good. Evil is only here because we have good morals. Each person that commits even the worst unimaginable crimes, do so for the good of themselves.

I cant think of anything evil which does not have something good as its motivator. Hence human nature always leans to doing good, or achieving something good, even if its self centered.

What is "good"?

Klipspringer

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#1009899 20-Mar-2014 14:47

Sidestep:
Klipspringer:
Sidestep:

Well there's been a bit of debate for a fair while about what human nature leans to.. much of it predating Christianity.

It leans towards doing good. Human nature cannot lean towards evil because actually there really is no such thing as evil. Its good that creates evil. Ie people do evil bad things, because they want something thats good. Evil is only here because we have good morals. Each person that commits even the worst unimaginable crimes, do so for the good of themselves.

I cant think of anything evil which does not have something good as its motivator. Hence human nature always leans to doing good, or achieving something good, even if its self centered.

What is "good"?

LOL you got me mate ...

Thats the real question ... And hence instead of having morals we should have no morals. Lets get rid of them entirely.

If we want to set morals. What do we base them on?

Sidestep

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#1009901 20-Mar-2014 14:50

Klipspringer:
Sidestep:
Klipspringer:
Sidestep:

Well there's been a bit of debate for a fair while about what human nature leans to.. much of it predating Christianity.

It leans towards doing good. Human nature cannot lean towards evil because actually there really is no such thing as evil. Its good that creates evil. Ie people do evil bad things, because they want something thats good. Evil is only here because we have good morals. Each person that commits even the worst unimaginable crimes, do so for the good of themselves.

I cant think of anything evil which does not have something good as its motivator. Hence human nature always leans to doing good, or achieving something good, even if its self centered.

What is "good"?

LOL you got me mate ...

Thats the real question ... And hence instead of having morals we should have no morals. Lets get rid of them entirely.

If we want to set morals. What do we base them on?

That's exactly the question we should ask our kids in school

farcus

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#1009912 20-Mar-2014 15:08

If parents want kids to learn about religion (christianity) then they should do it at home with this book

http://www.awkwardmomentsbible.com/

Despite it being a humorous book it is actually completely accurate in its depictions of events from the bible.

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