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393 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 1008998 19-Mar-2014 14:15
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I did most of my early schooling in the uk and I remember my religous education class fondly, we went over the basics (ver very basics) of hinduism and Buddhism, as well as Christianity. I would wholly support this type of class in nz.
On the other hand a cllass taught by a representative of the church..? Bound to be biased, and should be kept to schools that advertise a christian backround.. not state schools.




this is where a signature goes

836 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 1009001 19-Mar-2014 14:18
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jonathan18:
sdav:
jonathan18:
sdav: I think it is is good and should be taught. There was no way my parents could have taught me about Christianity because they weren't Christian! It was not a difficult leap to make in later life to be respectful of all religions and while that was because my parents taught me respect it was nice to have been taught parts of the bible.


The point is, though, is it's not "taught" in the way we would expect other subjects to be taught. The "teachers" are not trained; there is (in all the sessions I've witnessed) never an attempt to provide balance or even acknowledge an alternative viewpoint - (Christian) religion is presented as fact.

Young kids are gullible and often accept their "teacher's" word as gospel (pardon the pun); it's just not appropriate in a secular education system to expose them to indoctrination. If parents want that for their kids they can always send them to a "special character" school such as a Catholic school.


The people that came into my school (from memory, it was primary school) were just from the local church. They told religious stories often where the main goal was to teach morals. It was fine and I'm definitely the better person for it. Some parents had their kids sit out as that was their choice but in hindsight it seems ridiculous. It's funny we have this debate in a country where we are well known for exploring the world and learning about other cultures/beliefs. Of course you can't teach every religion but what ever. Just kids knowing what their friends or other sin the community may believe is not a bad thing.


Have to agree to disagree on this! "Teaching" people about one religion - and indeed the dominant one in this country (so the one they're most likely to have been exposed to outside of school) - doesn't really open up childrens' minds. If you can't teach about the multiplicity of religions - and indeed the various views on religion - then it's probably best not to do it at all.

EDIT - I'd go further than what I said above: presenting religion from a single viewpoint does the opposite of opening up children's minds - it presents them a narrow perspective that totally fails to reflect the variety and multiplicity of faiths/religions.


Nah - I see it the other way - teaching kids nothing of other religions leaves them nowhere (ignorant) and in a position where they can't question. It's like saying, we can't teach all languages at school so lets not teach any. Of course we are are not going to explore or expect kids to be taught in the belief system of the Nkumbe tribe in West Africa but teaching the main religions, esp the ones that dominate the nightly news might serve to open peoples minds and change some of the ridiculous comments made (who am I kidding!).

 
 
 
 


116 posts

Master Geek


  # 1009005 19-Mar-2014 14:27

ubergeeknz:
Jas777: ubergeeknz

I always thought it was written by the minnions of a Roman Emperor to keep the oiks in line.


Well, put it this way.  

Science teaches us to ALWAYS question, to test the boundaries of the body of knowledge, and hence update that body of knowledge.  Nobody is going to stone you to death for questioning something written in a Science book, and going out to test that thing for yourself.

Whereas most Religions (pretty much all flavours of Christianity tend this way) teach us to NEVER question the body of knowledge.  Why would you want to think for your self?  Instead, here, let us interpret for you what's in this book, which is the Word of God (just trust us on that one).  Because to question the word of God, the Creator of all things, and/or his Prophet sent to Earth to teach us the way?  Blasphemy!  How could you think you know better than God!?

Which belief system do you think suits those in power more, in terms of keeping the populous under control?


There is no need to believe in sience. In fact you should try to not to believe at all.

Which garage would you rather bring your broken car to? One that believes it can fix it or one that knows it can fix it?

Believing pretty much means not knowing for a fact (highlights by me, from dictionary.com):

be·lieve verb (used without object), be·lieved, be·liev·ing. 1. to have confidence in the truth, the existence, or the reliability of something, although without absolute proof that one is right in doing so

know verb (used with object), knew, known, know·ing. 1. to perceive or understand as fact or truth; to apprehend clearly and with certainty

knowl·edge noun 1. acquaintance with facts, truths, or principles, as from study or investigation; general erudition



540 posts

Ultimate Geek

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  # 1009010 19-Mar-2014 14:35
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Very important distinction, every time someone at work says they believe in a sequence of events it is important to clarify because they're not saying they know what happened.

716 posts

Ultimate Geek

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  # 1009014 19-Mar-2014 14:42
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Batwing: Very important distinction, every time someone at work says they believe in a sequence of events it is important to clarify because they're not saying they know what happened.


Yes -Dogma is the enemy.
Not necessarily religion.
One thing we can be sure of is that we're wrong about almost everything we know. (posting stuff on this forum proves that immediately)

4130 posts

Uber Geek

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  # 1009023 19-Mar-2014 14:48
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sdav: Nah - I see it the other way - teaching kids nothing of other religions leaves them nowhere (ignorant) and in a position where they can't question. It's like saying, we can't teach all languages at school so lets not teach any. Of course we are are not going to explore or expect kids to be taught in the belief system of the Nkumbe tribe in West Africa but teaching the main religions, esp the ones that dominate the nightly news might serve to open peoples minds and change some of the ridiculous comments made (who am I kidding!).


This seems to be a different argument to the one you made above; there you expressed satisfaction with what you were delivered at school (a solely Christian viewpoint "taught" by practioners of that religion), but now you're acknowledging the value of teaching children about "main religions" (plural).

And this is exactly the point I've been making all along! It's only through acknowledging faith comes in many forms - demonstrated by teaching about the "main religions" as you say, but also even that "no religion" is a valid "belief" system - that our education system can play a valuable role in expanding children's understanding and (hopefully) tolerance. What ever way you look at it, the current arrangements will just never deliver this diversity of viewpoints - for the reasons I've outlined earlier.

3344 posts

Uber Geek

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Vocus

  # 1009025 19-Mar-2014 14:51
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Batwing: Very important distinction, every time someone at work says they believe in a sequence of events it is important to clarify because they're not saying they know what happened.


Agreed.  Nothing is truly known.  

To take the Mechanic metaphor a little further:

The mechanic who "knows" they can fix it is being arrogant.

Now for the mechanic who "believes" they can fix it.  The important question is WHY they believe they can fix it.

Do they believe the can fix it because their mum told them they could?

Or do they believe they can fix it because they have fixed a similar problem in similar vehicles ten times before hand?

 
 
 
 


14225 posts

Uber Geek

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  # 1009028 19-Mar-2014 14:55
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ubergeeknz:
Batwing: Very important distinction, every time someone at work says they believe in a sequence of events it is important to clarify because they're not saying they know what happened.


Agreed.  Nothing is truly known.  

To take the Mechanic metaphor a little further:

The mechanic who "knows" they can fix it is being arrogant.

Now for the mechanic who "believes" they can fix it.  The important question is WHY they believe they can fix it.

Do they believe the can fix it because their mum told them they could?

Or do they believe they can fix it because they have fixed a similar problem in similar vehicles ten times before hand?


Take a car to a mechanic with a broken headlamp he is not arrogant if he knows he can fix it. Circumstance is important.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


2385 posts

Uber Geek
Inactive user


  # 1009030 19-Mar-2014 15:02
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jonathan18:
sdav: Nah - I see it the other way - teaching kids nothing of other religions leaves them nowhere (ignorant) and in a position where they can't question. It's like saying, we can't teach all languages at school so lets not teach any. Of course we are are not going to explore or expect kids to be taught in the belief system of the Nkumbe tribe in West Africa but teaching the main religions, esp the ones that dominate the nightly news might serve to open peoples minds and change some of the ridiculous comments made (who am I kidding!).


This seems to be a different argument to the one you made above; there you expressed satisfaction with what you were delivered at school (a solely Christian viewpoint "taught" by practioners of that religion), but now you're acknowledging the value of teaching children about "main religions" (plural).

And this is exactly the point I've been making all along! It's only through acknowledging faith comes in many forms - demonstrated by teaching about the "main religions" as you say, but also even that "no religion" is a valid "belief" system - that our education system can play a valuable role in expanding children's understanding and (hopefully) tolerance. What ever way you look at it, the current arrangements will just never deliver this diversity of viewpoints - for the reasons I've outlined earlier.


Interesting point this

If you want to oppose christianity or any other religion for that matter, learn and understand it first. Otherwise you just show your ignorance. Judging from the comments on the original article, its clear that many of those opposed to religion in schools actually have no idea what they opposing. Reminds me of the old saying, "It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."

Follow the herd mentality is rife.



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Uber Geek

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Vocus

  # 1009031 19-Mar-2014 15:02
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KiwiNZ:
ubergeeknz:
Batwing: Very important distinction, every time someone at work says they believe in a sequence of events it is important to clarify because they're not saying they know what happened.


Agreed.  Nothing is truly known.  

To take the Mechanic metaphor a little further:

The mechanic who "knows" they can fix it is being arrogant.

Now for the mechanic who "believes" they can fix it.  The important question is WHY they believe they can fix it.

Do they believe the can fix it because their mum told them they could?

Or do they believe they can fix it because they have fixed a similar problem in similar vehicles ten times before hand?


Take a car to a mechanic with a broken headlamp he is not arrogant if he knows he can fix it. Circumstance is important.


The world might end.  There might be an earthquake.  There might not be stock of the correct bulb.  He cannot "Know" until it is actually done and observed ;)

716 posts

Ultimate Geek

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  # 1009033 19-Mar-2014 15:07
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ubergeeknz:
KiwiNZ:
ubergeeknz:
Batwing: Very important distinction, every time someone at work says they believe in a sequence of events it is important to clarify because they're not saying they know what happened.


Agreed.  Nothing is truly known.  

To take the Mechanic metaphor a little further:

The mechanic who "knows" they can fix it is being arrogant.

Now for the mechanic who "believes" they can fix it.  The important question is WHY they believe they can fix it.

Do they believe the can fix it because their mum told them they could?

Or do they believe they can fix it because they have fixed a similar problem in similar vehicles ten times before hand?


Take a car to a mechanic with a broken headlamp he is not arrogant if he knows he can fix it. Circumstance is important.


The world might end.  There might be an earthquake.  There might not be stock of the correct bulb.  He cannot "Know" until it is actually done and observed ;)


And even when it's done and observed it may not be fixed.. the universe is a complicated place



2225 posts

Uber Geek

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  # 1009036 19-Mar-2014 15:15
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Sidestep:
ubergeeknz:
KiwiNZ:
ubergeeknz:
Batwing: Very important distinction, every time someone at work says they believe in a sequence of events it is important to clarify because they're not saying they know what happened.


Agreed.  Nothing is truly known.  

To take the Mechanic metaphor a little further:

The mechanic who "knows" they can fix it is being arrogant.

Now for the mechanic who "believes" they can fix it.  The important question is WHY they believe they can fix it.

Do they believe the can fix it because their mum told them they could?

Or do they believe they can fix it because they have fixed a similar problem in similar vehicles ten times before hand?


Take a car to a mechanic with a broken headlamp he is not arrogant if he knows he can fix it. Circumstance is important.


The world might end.  There might be an earthquake.  There might not be stock of the correct bulb.  He cannot "Know" until it is actually done and observed ;)


And even when it's done and observed it may not be fixed.. the universe is a complicated place


Straight from the Book of Yoda. Proud he must be, hmmm?




Handsome Dan Has Spoken.

266 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 1009038 19-Mar-2014 15:17
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Handsomedan:
Sidestep:
ubergeeknz:
KiwiNZ:
ubergeeknz:
Batwing: Very important distinction, every time someone at work says they believe in a sequence of events it is important to clarify because they're not saying they know what happened.


Agreed.  Nothing is truly known.  

To take the Mechanic metaphor a little further:

The mechanic who "knows" they can fix it is being arrogant.

Now for the mechanic who "believes" they can fix it.  The important question is WHY they believe they can fix it.

Do they believe the can fix it because their mum told them they could?

Or do they believe they can fix it because they have fixed a similar problem in similar vehicles ten times before hand?


Take a car to a mechanic with a broken headlamp he is not arrogant if he knows he can fix it. Circumstance is important.


The world might end.  There might be an earthquake.  There might not be stock of the correct bulb.  He cannot "Know" until it is actually done and observed ;)


And even when it's done and observed it may not be fixed.. the universe is a complicated place


Straight from the Book of Yoda. Proud he must be, hmmm?


May the force be with you




I'm going to noob myself past judgement

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Uber Geek

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  # 1009046 19-Mar-2014 15:26
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ubergeeknz:
KiwiNZ:
ubergeeknz:
Batwing: Very important distinction, every time someone at work says they believe in a sequence of events it is important to clarify because they're not saying they know what happened.


Agreed.  Nothing is truly known.  

To take the Mechanic metaphor a little further:

The mechanic who "knows" they can fix it is being arrogant.

Now for the mechanic who "believes" they can fix it.  The important question is WHY they believe they can fix it.

Do they believe the can fix it because their mum told them they could?

Or do they believe they can fix it because they have fixed a similar problem in similar vehicles ten times before hand?


Take a car to a mechanic with a broken headlamp he is not arrogant if he knows he can fix it. Circumstance is important.


The world might end.  There might be an earthquake.  There might not be stock of the correct bulb.  He cannot "Know" until it is actually done and observed ;)


Point

You don't know the power of the dark side

There is a difference between saying one can fix it and saying will fix it

After all the Lord said .... let there be light and there was and you could see for bloody miles.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


2385 posts

Uber Geek
Inactive user


  # 1009054 19-Mar-2014 15:36
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KiwiNZ:

After all the Lord said .... let there be light and there was and you could see for bloody miles.


If he said, let there be light. Does that not mean darkness existed first?

What is darkness, is it something of its own, black? Or is it simply the absence of light? Did light therefore create darkness?



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