Forms of government for New Zealand

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#1027844 19-Apr-2014 19:48

KiwiNZ:

Universal Suffrage ranks as one of the best decisions NZ ever made.

Inconsistent with Universal Suffrage is that prisoners cannot vote in NZ!

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MikeB4

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#1027881 19-Apr-2014 20:08

Sidestep:
KiwiNZ:

Universal Suffrage ranks as one of the best decisions NZ ever made.

Inconsistent with Universal Suffrage is that prisoners cannot vote in NZ!

They by personal choice have put themselves outside the system, tough.

sir1963

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#1027912 19-Apr-2014 20:52

Sidestep:
KiwiNZ:

Universal Suffrage ranks as one of the best decisions NZ ever made.

Inconsistent with Universal Suffrage is that prisoners cannot vote in NZ!

By being in prison they have a lot of other rights removed too. Being unable to vote is not undemocratic as far as I am concerned.

gzt

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#1028063 20-Apr-2014 09:32

The right to vote is so fundamental to democracy that it should never ever be removed under any circumstances.

Sidestep

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#1028068 20-Apr-2014 09:59

gzt: The right to vote is so fundamental to democracy that it should never ever be removed under any circumstances.

I agree. Any reduction of democracy becomes a slippery slope.

There are many reasons, which can be politically influenced, for a person to be jailed. Look at Anwar in Malaysia, Nelson in South Africa..

If anything, retaining the right to vote might lead a jailed person to more participation in society, rather than further alienation.

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#1028069 20-Apr-2014 10:08

Sidestep:
gzt: The right to vote is so fundamental to democracy that it should never ever be removed under any circumstances.

I agree. Any reduction of democracy becomes a slippery slope.

There are many reasons, which can be politically influenced, for a person to be jailed. Look at Anwar in Malaysia, Nelson in South Africa..

If anything, retaining the right to vote might lead a jailed person to more participation in society, rather than further alienation.

Really; comparisons between NZ and Apartheid South Africa and Malaysia. Thats just crazy.

They can stop being alienated by ummm let me think now oh thats right don't commit crime. Simple really.

Edit: I will add that I feel the return of voting rights prior release or parole could be part of the return to society process, but there must be demonstrated a genuine desire to reintegrate and not reoffend.

sir1963

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#1028100 20-Apr-2014 11:27

gzt: The right to vote is so fundamental to democracy that it should never ever be removed under any circumstances.

So is
Freedom of Association
Freedom of Movement

They also loose their right not to be randomly searched,
So do their visitors.

We can also remove their right to drive, right to owns pets, right to own firearms. Even when out of prison we can restrict their rights to movement
etc etc etc.

So basically, when and only when a criminal can show how they respected the rights of their victims they can then get their rights back , or until such
time as the courts give them those rights back.

What IS required though is the right to the privy council, the ability to appeal to a court outside of NZs political interference, outside of the courts interference.

gzt

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#1028105 20-Apr-2014 11:57

The right to vote is so fundamental to democracy that serious problems for democracy are instantly created by removing (or restricting) any individuals ability to vote if they so choose.

MikeB4

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#1028106 20-Apr-2014 12:00

gzt: The right to vote is so fundamental to democracy that serious problems for democracy are instantly created by removing (or restricting) any individuals ability to vote if they so choose.

Not really in this situation, the restriction is very defined and very limited. After all they still have the right to vote they chose to separate themselves from that right.

Sidestep

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#1028107 20-Apr-2014 12:04

KiwiNZ:

Really; comparisons between NZ and Apartheid South Africa and Malaysia. Thats just crazy.

They can stop being alienated by ummm let me think now oh thats right don't commit crime. Simple really.

Edit: I will add that I feel the return of voting rights prior release or parole could be part of the return to society process, but there must be demonstrated a genuine desire to reintegrate and not reoffend.

IMHO making a comparison to others, to see what wrongs are possible down a certain path, is not “crazy”

Democracy's an imperfect science, improving our own system - without resorting to trial and error - involves finding yardsticks to measure ourselves by.

charsleysa

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#1028115 20-Apr-2014 12:29

gzt: The right to vote is so fundamental to democracy that serious problems for democracy are instantly created by removing (or restricting) any individuals ability to vote if they so choose.

Think of prison as a temporary exile from society. They have no rights when exiled, though we give them some rights in order to be humane, such as feeding and sheltering them.

This exile is somewhat a democratically decided decision as a jury of your peers votes as to whether or not you have done the crime and need to be punished.

After the temporary exile is up then you are restored some or all of your rights depending on various factors including the severity of your crime.

Regards
Stefan Andres Charsley

JimmyH

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#1028166 20-Apr-2014 15:25

I don't have an issue with the limited exclusions from voting that we have in NZ.

It's essentially just people in prison, those committed under certain provisions of the Mental Health Act, those under 18 (i.e. children), and those living here who aren't either a citizen or a permanent resident.

All of which seems reasonable.

Geektastic

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#1028171 20-Apr-2014 15:40

KiwiNZ:
Sidestep:
KiwiNZ:

Universal Suffrage ranks as one of the best decisions NZ ever made.

Inconsistent with Universal Suffrage is that prisoners cannot vote in NZ!

They by personal choice have put themselves outside the system, tough.

Not so - that is the only aspect of NZ law that they are outside.

Were they true 'outlaws (in the medieval and original sense 'outside the law'), we would be free to kill them on sight without any penalty.

All NZ laws apply to them (i.e. they benefit from Human Rights etc) so they are most definitely inside the system.

Fred99

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#1028289 20-Apr-2014 18:21

The system (prison) doesn't seem to work very well in NZ (deterrent to crime, and rehabilitation).
NZ has a relatively high rate of incarceration - and a poor performance with recidivism.

MikeB4

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#1028298 20-Apr-2014 18:55

Fred99: The system (prison) doesn't seem to work very well in NZ (deterrent to crime, and rehabilitation).
NZ has a relatively high rate of incarceration - and a poor performance with recidivism.

Restorative justice will always have varying levels of success, it is still better than retributive justice. But again the choice to reoffend is a conscientious choice. Loss voting an outcome of that choice.

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