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Topic # 144118 7-May-2014 22:59
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Continued from off-topic discussion in Wheedle thread...

dratsab: The reason Trademe don't get involved has already been explained.

I read your previous posts but none contained an explanation of why TradeMe would not get involved in the one case of concert tickets. In other posts you do point out they act to protect the integrity of the market for other items.

Last time I purchased concert tickets from TradeMe they were sold by a person who had received complimentary tickets but could not attend due to a pre-booked holiday on the same date. Concert was sold out, the asking price was the same as or very close to the booking office price iirc. I was a happy customer.

Hypothetically if the concert had been cancelled I expect that person would have refunded the purchase price. I would have expected some involvement from TradeMe if the person did not.

Can you explain to me then why TradeMe are happy to collect the commissions from these sales but are unwilling to take minimal steps to protect the integrity of the market in this instance?

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  Reply # 1038679 7-May-2014 22:59
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Hmmmm. Here we go.




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  Reply # 1038792 8-May-2014 09:53
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I think a law change is required to clarify this, which is a very grey area.

If on-selling of tickets is allowed (and it is) then the holder of the ticket is the owner, not the person who purchased it originally.

Thus it seems fairly obvious to me that if an event is cancelled, any refund from the promoter MUST go to the holder of the ticket. At present the ticket companies make life easy for themselves by just refunding to the original purchaser, which is patently unfair when there is no obligation on that person to refund anyone they sold it to - and the chain could be any number of people long.

Trying to get TM and a potentially long list of sellers to refund may be too hard.

Making the ticket issuer liable to require the surrender of the tickets in order to get a refund would ensure that at least the face value would be refunded to the actual owner of the ticket.

Alternatively, TM should simply refuse to list tickets at all.





 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 1038842 8-May-2014 10:42
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caveat emptor




 

 

Save

 

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  Reply # 1038851 8-May-2014 10:47
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Zippity: caveat emptor


But why? Surely TM have a vested interest in making their system a safe and reliable way to buy and sell anything. A concert ticket is not an old second hand toaster, it is a current and valuable new item with a value. The willingness of NZ'ers to accept that there is no reason for the law to protect them is very odd. Why would it be better not to change the law and just allow the present wild west scenario to continue? That seems like backwards thinking to me.





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  Reply # 1038855 8-May-2014 10:53
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I don't see this as a TM problem at all.  Its the policies of the ticket sales agencies/promoters that are at fault, although I understand in this electronic age it is easier (read: cheaper) just to refund to the original payment account, rather than mucking around with the rather manual and laborious process of checking actual printed tickets.  Also there are less and less actual tickets these days.  A lot are now an electronic pass/PDF that you print out yourself.  

It's a civil matter between the seller and the buyer

Caveat emptor +1








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  Reply # 1038865 8-May-2014 11:02
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Bit of a rubbish circle of 3 evils really. Coming back to ignored morality since there is no governing rules

TM get the fees knowing well they are not obliged to police the sales
Sellers knowing all well they are often praying on people for an easy buck
Buyers oblivious to the encouragement it gives the trade by their blinded urges to be part of the specticle

Similar to Celebs not happy with photographers/paps. If no-one purchased the mags (made the demand) or read the media outlets exploiting the photos, there would be no reason to get the photos to sell in the first place

If noone purchased scalpers,  sorry.. 'I've had something come up and need to sell my 4 tickets' people.. they would be left red-faced with large overheads and tickets they can't offload. But alas, the demand remains so they all make a killing.

Show promoters have their own terms and conditions at the time of sale which noone tend to take note of. Including no photography/video devices etc. And often disclaimers about refunds and tickets being voided if onsold for more than face value. It just doesn't seem to be policed.

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  Reply # 1038878 8-May-2014 11:11
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A read through the FAQ is amusing.


Each ticket that we sell contains the following condition of sale:

This ticket may not, without the prior written consent of Ticketek and the seller, be resold or offered for resale at a premium (including via on-line auction sites) or used for advertising, promoting or other commercial purposes (including competitions and trade promotions) or to enhance the demand for other goods or services, either by the original purchaser or any subsequent bearer. If a ticket is sold or used in breach of this condition, the ticket may be cancelled without a refund and the bearer of the ticket may be refused admission.
Scalping warning: In addition, the resale of tickets in certain circumstances is governed by ticket sales legislation and may attract criminal penalties.


 

 

 

Selling tickets or offering tickets for sale for above their face value via auction sites or any other unauthorised means is in breach of Ticketek's Terms and Conditions of Sale. Tickets that are detected as being sold or offered for resale in breach of the Ticketek Terms and Conditions of Sale may be cancelled without a refund.

 

If you can't attend an event for legitimate reasons and want to sell your ticket via an online auction site, Ticketek will not object to your sale as long as the selling/offer price is no more than the face value of the ticket. For example, you can use eBay's Buy Now function as long as the ticket price is set at face value or below.


So yes, Jargon to cover their Butts. But not enforced like the threat.

They also mention eBay a LOT, and not our other fav sites. You have to wonder

 

 


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  Reply # 1038897 8-May-2014 11:42
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Oblivian: A read through the FAQ is amusing.


Each ticket that we sell contains the following condition of sale:

This ticket may not, without the prior written consent of Ticketek and the seller, be resold or offered for resale at a premium (including via on-line auction sites) or used for advertising, promoting or other commercial purposes (including competitions and trade promotions) or to enhance the demand for other goods or services, either by the original purchaser or any subsequent bearer. If a ticket is sold or used in breach of this condition, the ticket may be cancelled without a refund and the bearer of the ticket may be refused admission.
Scalping warning: In addition, the resale of tickets in certain circumstances is governed by ticket sales legislation and may attract criminal penalties.


Selling tickets or offering tickets for sale for above their face value via auction sites or any other unauthorised means is in breach of Ticketek's Terms and Conditions of Sale. Tickets that are detected as being sold or offered for resale in breach of the Ticketek Terms and Conditions of Sale may be cancelled without a refund. If you can't attend an event for legitimate reasons and want to sell your ticket via an online auction site, Ticketek will not object to your sale as long as the selling/offer price is no more than the face value of the ticket. For example, you can use eBay's Buy Now function as long as the ticket price is set at face value or below.


So yes, Jargon to cover their Butts. But not enforced like the threat.

They also mention eBay a LOT, and not our other fav sites. You have to wonder


However quite clearly if a ticket costs you $100 you are within their T&C's to on-sell it for $100 or less.

It is at that point there is a divergence: yes, our T&C's explicitly allow you to sell it but no, we won't refund in the event of cancellation to anyone but the person who bought it from us.





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  Reply # 1038910 8-May-2014 12:04
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Geektastic: Thus it seems fairly obvious to me that if an event is cancelled, any refund from the promoter MUST go to the holder of the ticket.

No law change is required here. There are many good reasons the refund should go to the person who actually paid for them.

Moving on to when the ticket changes hands I completely agree with Scwup that the sale is a civil matter between buyer and seller, and therefore so is any refund required if the event is cancelled.

Commenters in the previous thread were indicating that where this occurs, it is TradeMe policy not to get involved at all. This is unsatisfactory and I cannot understand the reasons for it.

If the buyer gets no response from the seller at this point I would expect TradeMe to contact the seller and ask for an explanation. If the seller cannot offer one then I would expect TradeMe to advise the seller account will be closed.

Several commenters in the previous thread indicated that TradeMe would not take these steps in the case of concert tickets. I really cannot understand why this could be the case and there has been no explanation offered so far.

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  Reply # 1039018 8-May-2014 14:02
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gzt:
Geektastic: Thus it seems fairly obvious to me that if an event is cancelled, any refund from the promoter MUST go to the holder of the ticket.

No law change is required here. There are many good reasons the refund should go to the person who actually paid for them.

Moving on to when the ticket changes hands I completely agree with Scwup that the sale is a civil matter between buyer and seller, and therefore so is any refund required if the event is cancelled.

Commenters in the previous thread were indicating that where this occurs, it is TradeMe policy not to get involved at all. This is unsatisfactory and I cannot understand the reasons for it.

If the buyer gets no response from the seller at this point I would expect TradeMe to contact the seller and ask for an explanation. If the seller cannot offer one then I would expect TradeMe to advise the seller account will be closed.

Several commenters in the previous thread indicated that TradeMe would not take these steps in the case of concert tickets. I really cannot understand why this could be the case and there has been no explanation offered so far.


I see no good reason why the refund should go to the person who no longer owns the tickets rather than the person who does.

If you buy a car and the manufacturer recall it for an urgent repair, they do not refuse to work on the car unless the person bringing the car in is the original owner. They accept that you are the owner now and that you are entitled to the benefit of the recall work.

How can you have a civil matter between buyers and sellers on TM when personal details are not disclosed: you couldn't serve writs etc. unless TM were prepared to divulge the seller's address and so on which they would doubtless be very unwilling to do. Also, you could have a chain of many people involved if a ticket had been sold multiple times which would make life very hard!

The simplest and most elegant solution is to require ticket companies to refund only the person who can demonstrate legal title to the item being refunded - i.e. the person who owns the physical ticket.





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  Reply # 1039024 8-May-2014 14:10
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Geektastic: The simplest and most elegant solution is to require ticket companies to refund only the person who can demonstrate legal title to the item being refunded - i.e. the person who owns the physical ticket.


Perhaps you are right but in a lot of cases there is no physical ticket, just a PDF or similar that can be passed around.

How does a person demonstrate legal title to the item to the ticket company?

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  Reply # 1039025 8-May-2014 14:10
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Geektastic:
gzt:
Geektastic: Thus it seems fairly obvious to me that if an event is cancelled, any refund from the promoter MUST go to the holder of the ticket.

No law change is required here. There are many good reasons the refund should go to the person who actually paid for them.

Moving on to when the ticket changes hands I completely agree with Scwup that the sale is a civil matter between buyer and seller, and therefore so is any refund required if the event is cancelled.

Commenters in the previous thread were indicating that where this occurs, it is TradeMe policy not to get involved at all. This is unsatisfactory and I cannot understand the reasons for it.

If the buyer gets no response from the seller at this point I would expect TradeMe to contact the seller and ask for an explanation. If the seller cannot offer one then I would expect TradeMe to advise the seller account will be closed.

Several commenters in the previous thread indicated that TradeMe would not take these steps in the case of concert tickets. I really cannot understand why this could be the case and there has been no explanation offered so far.


I see no good reason why the refund should go to the person who no longer owns the tickets rather than the person who does.

If you buy a car and the manufacturer recall it for an urgent repair, they do not refuse to work on the car unless the person bringing the car in is the original owner. They accept that you are the owner now and that you are entitled to the benefit of the recall work.

How can you have a civil matter between buyers and sellers on TM when personal details are not disclosed: you couldn't serve writs etc. unless TM were prepared to divulge the seller's address and so on which they would doubtless be very unwilling to do. Also, you could have a chain of many people involved if a ticket had been sold multiple times which would make life very hard!

The simplest and most elegant solution is to require ticket companies to refund only the person who can demonstrate legal title to the item being refunded - i.e. the person who owns the physical ticket.


It depends what the terms of the sale of the ticket say. The buyer would need to take this into consideration when selling, as would the seller  So if a refund was needed due to the event not occurring, then the buyer would need to contact the sell about getting that refund. Any reputuable seller would help the buyer out.
If trademe allow these tickets to be sold, perhaps they need to create a special system for this, where they can request a refund due to event not occuring. Potentially it could be done via an automated system on trademe using credit cards. What it perhaps needs is a listing fee of event tickets to cover the associated costs in managing such a system.

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  Reply # 1039033 8-May-2014 14:14
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TM potentially wash their hands of any ticket sales due to the T&C attached to them at time of original sale.

Knowing well the terms on the ticket. I guess, If they were to act as an enforcement of them, or take sides with one of the parties in a sale, from a standpoint if it back fired and went to court over cancellations or the likes and someone ending up out of pocket wanting compensation via a judge - it could possibly be seen as they are a party in breach of the terms themselves for allowing it.

Whereas if they stand like they do, they are simply a medium for such sales to take place but play no part in the breach of terms within the sale. Much like Megaupload being a medium.

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  Reply # 1039043 8-May-2014 14:21
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graemeh:
Geektastic: The simplest and most elegant solution is to require ticket companies to refund only the person who can demonstrate legal title to the item being refunded - i.e. the person who owns the physical ticket.


Perhaps you are right but in a lot of cases there is no physical ticket, just a PDF or similar that can be passed around.

How does a person demonstrate legal title to the item to the ticket company?


I'm pretty sure that using a smartphone app they could render the ticket worthless other than by the holder of the phone it was 'attached' to when purchased at least - which would have the added benefit of killing scalping too.

The other elegant solution would be for TM to step up and change the system to use a variety of Safe Trader where money for the sale of a ticket is held in escrow until the event takes place, being automatically refunded to the buyer if the event is cancelled.





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  Reply # 1039114 8-May-2014 14:39
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Stop resubmitting! :)

It errors but actually posts. Fixed now tho

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